Artificial Pilot Body in the Way

[LowRider88]

I prefer to fly with the artificial pilot body in the cockpit view, since to me this seems more realistic.

 

However the body is static and often gets in the way.

 

E.g. Bf-109's pilot right leg covers right horizontal panel.

E.g. F-5E's pilots left elbow covers the trim damper switches.

 

It would be great if there were some simple animations to say, lift the forearm up, or move the leg inward, which would be controlled some button, and held in place until that button was released.

[tosmonaute]

I agree with you LowRider88!

 

If they could implement a way to move the legs or arms when we look at a panel, would be just great.

[LowRider88]

I agree with you LowRider88!

 

If they could implement a way to move the legs or arms when we look at a panel, would be just great.

 

Thanks tosmonaute! :thumbup:

Yes the pilot's body adds to the immersion, if it wasn't such a couch potato.

[rrohde]

Or, what's already possible today - you could just map the "Show Pilot Body" option to your HOTAS, and toggle on/off as needed.

[sirrah]

Pilot body arm animations definitely need to be implemented at some point, but at the moment I'm really thankful that some modules at least have a pilot body at all.

 

Automatic arm animation should be feasible I think.

 

1. Simple solution: When moving the mouse cursor over the arm (side panels), the arms could automatically move away.
   
2. More complex but extremely immersive solution: Have the pilot arms/hands follow the mouse cursor (oh my, try to even imagine how awesome that would be with gadgets like PointCTRL :surprise: )
   

[LowRider88]

Pilot body arm animations definitely need to be implemented at some point, but at the moment I'm really thankful that some modules at least have a pilot body at all.

 

Automatic arm animation should be feasible I think.

 

1. Simple solution: When moving the mouse cursor over the arm (side panels), the arms could automatically move away.
   
2. More complex but extremely immersive solution: Have the pilot arms/hands follow the mouse cursor (oh my, try to even imagine how awesome that would be with gadgets like PointCTRL :surprise: )
   

 

That is even better than what I suggested! :thumbup:

[PhantomCat]

IRL the pilot doesn't move his/her legs or even look down at the consoles. Fighter pilots are trained/tested to find switches, circuit breakers, etc blindfolded.

[Fri13]

It would be great if there were some simple animations to say, lift the forearm up, or move the leg inward, which would be controlled some button, and held in place until that button was released.

 

Just use the "hide pilot body" button for that.

 

But, for a dynamic animated body, such functions should be automatic when you move mouse cursor / virtual hand to the area. Meaning that if you have mouse cursor coming to near left arm, it would move backwards away from the throttle.

 

But second best thing would be having a virtual hand move along the mouse cursor position. And so on virtual hands would track your real hand as well and so on you have animated body for VR.

Meaning, if you want to see what is below the left arm, you move your arm (mouse cursor) away from that area.

 

And if you move mouse cursor on front of the cockpit, it would move along the mouse cursor as well and switch hands at the right side of the cockpit (based to what areas you are suppose to operate with left/right hands).

[sirrah]

IRL the pilot doesn't move his/her legs or even look down at the consoles. Fighter pilots are trained/tested to find switches, circuit breakers, etc blindfolded.

 

Well.. yes.. obviously..

 

But most people do not own full blown simpit for every module. So how would you imagine to simulate this?

 

As for the hide pilot body option. Of course we use that now, but my wish is that the pilot body would act slightly more dynamic and move away automatically when my cursor comes nearby switches.

[Fri13]

IRL the pilot doesn't move his/her legs or even look down at the consoles. Fighter pilots are trained/tested to find switches, circuit breakers, etc blindfolded.

 

IRL the procedure is that you move your hand on the widget, you make the change and then you glance the widget to confirm that you made it correctly.

 

You do nothing blindfolded by just touch.

You constantly are doing lot of things with your eyes.

 

If you are a wingman, then it is similar to this what you are doing all the time:

 

1) You look your HUD

2) You look your lead

3) You look your HUD

4) you look your instrument(s)

5) you look your HUD

6) you look your lead

7) you look your HUD

8) you look your instrument(s)

9) you look your HUD

10) you look your lead

11) .....

 

You are constantly looking different things. And when it comes to more challenging situation like visually observing an area, you are looking your lead, your instruments, your HUD and outside. And you keep rolling around your eyes and head to keep a track of everything.

 

And when it comes to time to make an adjustment to some widget in cockpit, you do it while performing visual checking of everything and after adjustment you check that you made it to one you wanted.

 

The problem is the digital displays and especially touch screens because those do not give you any physical indication that what you are doing like a mechanical switch can do.

So when you are about to flip a mechanical switch and there are bunch of them close by, you check that you are holding correct one before you do if it is dangerous one. But you get the feedback that when you flip switch On or Off.

 

With a LCD display you have no idea blindfolded that what page you have open or are you pressing the correct button. So it takes lots of time to stare the screen to know what you are looking for and what is where (even when you know in your dreams that what each button does around the each page) so you are actually pressing correct one.

 

The JHMCS is such a improvement that pilot doesn't need to look the HUD, but can look outside and still observe flight instruments while looking outside. But add there some of the sensors and you are again looking the Heads Down Displays , outside, and your embossed flight parameters.

 

This is as well reason why the flight instruments are organized in specific grouping in the older fighters, as you are checking each instrument separately. Example:

 

1) Look out

2) Look ADI

3) look out

4) look speed

5) look out

6) look ADI

7) look out

8) look VVI

9) look ADI

10) look out

etc.

 

So lots of time is spent just looking around the cockpit, instruments and everything else than just staring outside and operating aircraft.

[LowRider88]

IRL the pilot doesn't move his/her legs or even look down at the consoles. Fighter pilots are trained/tested to find switches, circuit breakers, etc blindfolded.

 

From your post I suspect you are like me and key map all the controls.

For me, I map both the up and down position of the F-5 damper switches, so I can be confident it is turned off, like a real pilot. But for those who run out of keys and have to map the toggle, they have no choice but to look down.

Unlike us, some people may rely completely on the click able cockpit in which case, they have no choice but to look down.

Whether a user uses either keyboard or click able cockpit, users still need to look down.

Eg. Check fuel flow in Bf-109

Eg. Check remaining chaff/flare in F-5

If the virtual pilots body blocks these, this is what we hope will be fixed here.

[SharpeXB]

Traditionally flight sims including DCS had no pilot body, for this reason. It seems odd to see it and yes it gets in the way. I never use it. The pilot body seems “arcade” to me.

In order to see controls and click on them, you have to move your view in a way that the real pilot wouldn’t, like looking at switches under the throttle or whatever. I don’t think animating the body would be successful. It could maybe react to your mouse cursor but it can’t know where you are looking so the body would end up blocking your view.

Edited June 29, 2020 by SharpeXB

[sirrah]

Traditionally flight sims including DCS had no pilot body, for this reason. It seems odd to see it and yes it gets in the way. I never use it. The pilot body seems “arcade” to me.

In order to see controls and click on them, you have to move your view in a way that the real pilot wouldn’t, like looking at switches under the throttle or whatever. I don’t think animating the body would be successful. It could maybe react to your mouse cursor but it can’t know where you are looking so the body would end up blocking your view.

 

An empty cockpit whilst in midair does not seem arcadish to you then? :smilewink:

Magically seeing the stick and rudder pedals move, in what feels like a giant empty cockpit, is what seems arcadish to me

 

I've been working on and sitting in F-16 cockpits for over a decade and imho, the DCS cockpits with pilot bodies (Hornet, M2000) feel much more cramped/realistic than the perfect "wallpaper" kind of feeling I get, when stepping into, for instance the Viper or Tomcat.

Edited June 29, 2020 by sirrah

[SharpeXB]

An empty cockpit whilst in midair does not seem arcadish to you then? :smilewink:

No because “simulators“ have always been this way. It’s the “Xbox” flying games which have a body in the cockpit.

Again it’s just not practical, you’d end up switching it on and off so much you’d just choose to leave it off.

I haven’t looked at the DCS one in maybe... 8 years. If it hasn’t improved the other problem is it just looks bad. The one in the P-51 looked like a stick man and when you check six you see your own headless torso.

[LowRider88]

An empty cockpit whilst in midair does not seem arcadish to you then? :smilewink:

Magically seeing the stick and rudder pedals move, in what feels like a giant empty cockpit, is what seems arcadish to me

 

I've been working on and sitting in F-16 cockpits for over a decade and imho, the DCS cockpits with pilot bodies (Hornet, M2000) feel much more cramped/realistic than the perfect "wallpaper" kind of feeling I get, when stepping into, for instance the Viper or Tomcat.

 

I agree with you Sirrah.

[sirrah]

No because “simulators“ have always been this way.

I'm glad this isn't ED's motto :P

 

“Xbox” flying games which have a body in the cockpit.

Ok (I wouldn't know, as I don't have one

 

 

Again it’s just not practical, you’d end up switching it on and off so much you’d just choose to leave it off.

Well, not that often. I personally have to switch it of only a few times during an entire mission

 

I haven’t looked at the DCS one in maybe... 8 years. If it hasn’t improved the other problem is it just looks bad. The one in the P-51 looked like a stick man and when you check six you see your own headless torso.

Fair enough. I can't remember what it was like 8 years ago. Also we didn't have VR back then, so I probably couldn't care less about the pilot body. Never really flown the P-51, but if what you say is true, that'd be even more reason to make the pilot body more dynamic

 

But anyways, I don't want to argue with you about this my friend (that's not worth it). Maybe we just have to agree to disagree :smilewink:

[SharpeXB]

Maybe someday we’ll have it motion captured to captogloves or moving with your VR controllers or something. In the meantime it’s just a hindrance.

 

Ok (I wouldn't know, as I don't have one

Have you ever had any other flight sim titles? I’ve never seen a pilot body in any other flight sim. Have you?

Edited June 29, 2020 by SharpeXB

[sirrah]

Have you ever had any other flight sim titles? I’ve never seen a pilot body in any other flight sim. Have you?

 

I have had a few other, which I'll not name here (1.15 rule). One of them is that ww2 sim featuring a Russian plane ;), and the lack of the pilot body and staring around in that large void cockpit, is one of the reasons that I left it. I know no other proper flightsim has a pilot body, so I'm glad ED is trying to set a new standard (we have to start somewhere and it's wishes like the OP made, to help make it better)

[tosmonaute]

Just like LowRider88, i think the pilot body bring more immersion in VR.

But there is always a moment we need to see some knobs or switches under.

 

Sirrah is right, simply with the cursor over a panel, the leg or arm hidding the panel could move out...

Should'nt be that hard to implement!

And it would'nt be just a gadget but a real tool for immersion.

Because an On/Off on my HOTAS... it's an immersion killer for me.

[Northstar98]

I'm with Sharpe on the hindrance, I'd rather sit in an empty cockpit with a magically moving stick and pedals (though to be honest, I'm probably not looking at them while flying) than have something blocking literally every switch on the consoles.

[SharpeXB]

Sirrah is right, simply with the cursor over a panel, the leg or arm hidding the panel could move out...

Should'nt be that hard to implement!

I would never assume anything in DCS “shouldn’t be that hard”... everything is hard

And I don’t think it’s possible to make the pilot body move enough to completely reveal controls, especially if you are simply looking at them and not using the mouse. For example the fuel gauges in the P-51 are on the floor and the trim controls which you probably have bound to a HOTAS aren’t visible. A real pilot doesn’t have to physically move that much to actually see everything and it’s not even possible in a cockpit to do that.

And for this to not look terrible you’re talking about motion capturing human movements, which actually is done on the Supercarrier, but it’s not easy or simple.

[LowRider88]

For those who prefer any empty cockpit, this request does not eliminate that option. Just keep using what you have so far. Why can't new features be new options?

For those who think it is too hard to do, why does the pilots leg move when pushing the pedals? Because it is possibly.

I don't understand why some people put so much effort into being nay sayers and keeping the technology in the game from advancing. That's like Dark Age mentality. Then what is the point of a wishlist forum?

Edited June 30, 2020 by LowRider88

[SharpeXB]

Why can't new features be new options?

Because every wish costs time and money and these modules already take years to develop. On all these sorts of wishes it depend on how many people would actually use them. Why spend time and money on this so players can just switch it off? My impression watching lots of DCS videos is that very few have this enabled.

 

For those who think it is too hard to do, why does the pilots leg move when pushing the pedals?

That animation is really simplistic. It’s not like having the whole body contort around and it may not even be possible that pilots move their body that much to look directly at everything. Plus where’s the immersion when you wouldn’t see the hands going to the controls? And if they did map hands to Touch controllers, that might be something but then you’d see the hands flopping around when you set the controller down to use the stick.

 

Racing sims have pretty good animations in them and you see the hand over hand action and on the shifter etc. but those don’t have the click pit problem and there are less controls to worry about.

Edited June 30, 2020 by SharpeXB

[tosmonaute]

Yes SharpeXB, it would be lot of work for sure.

I understand your point of view.

But it is exactly the reason why i did disable the pilot, just because i cannot see switches and knobs.

Not because i prefer an empty cockpit, btw it would not need the whole body to move, but just the arm or the leg.

You are right economically they have other things to do before this, it is only a new option wish list .

[LowRider88]

Because every wish costs time and money and these modules already take years to develop. On all these sorts of wishes it depend on how many people would actually use them. Why spend time and money on this so players can just switch it off? My impression watching lots of DCS videos is that very few have this enabled.

 

 

That animation is really simplistic. It’s not like having the whole body contort around and it may not even be possible that pilots move their body that much to look directly at everything. Plus where’s the immersion when you wouldn’t see the hands going to the controls? And if they did map hands to Touch controllers, that might be something but then you’d see the hands flopping around when you set the controller down to use the stick.

 

Racing sims have pretty good animations in them and you see the hand over hand action and on the shifter etc. but those don’t have the click pit problem and there are less controls to worry about.

 

If you prefer other development priorities, then you should be posting your own enhancements rather than discrediting those you disagree with. You are not the sole user, and decision maker.

I see many request from other I don't cafe about, but I don't pretend to be the ED accountant or project manager and say what is not viable.

You keep referencing xbox and arcade games in trying to promote doing nothing for the game.