New exploit - Zigzagging?

[*Rage*]

To the best of my knowledge this has not been posted before...

 

I was flying with a friend of mine 1v1 BVR 27vs15. Started at 5km and climbed to 10km alt and then launched r27er at 50km...then 30km...then 25km and 15km.

 

All of them missed. same engagement - 5 times over.....all of them missed.

Note they were all fired at maximum 80% range and often alot closer then that. at all times i had the f15 locked and was always below him after i had fired the missiles just watching them track while i was f-poling. I did not lose lock once.

 

I asked him how he had evaded all the missiles...without f poling, without a single hit once, all missiles fired well within range and no last minute barrel rolling evasion manuevres.

 

Turns out to be chaff and zigzagging. Simple left to right oscilating movements and the missiles miss. no need fpole, last ditch barrel role, etc.

 

I remember this was an exploit in Flanker 2 and I thought it had been fixed.

 

Anyone care to shed some light??

[GGTharos]

It's just an issue with missile tracking, that's all ... not much you can do about it.

[*Rage*]

It's just an issue with missile tracking, that's all ... not much you can do about it.

 

I knew that the chaff was/is over effective but i hadnt heard of this zigzagging to cause abberant missile tracking such that you can just walze ahead fearless:(

 

So the zigzagging causes the missile to not track? How?

[Kenan]

Yup.

[504Goon]

Yup.

 

What the.. who are you? Shouldn't you be somewhere else?

 

Welcome back!

[*Rage*]

Yup.

 

Just as I learn to love again..my heart is broken:cry:

 

Seriously though...this sucks. I'd still like to understand why it buggers the tracking so much.

 

Edit: oh yeah, nice to see you kenan

[GGTharos]

From farther away, it makes it waste energy in hard turns. Closer in, a well timed, high-g reversal make it imposible for the missile to track you through the turn due to aspect related changes in RCS and the missile's general inability to follow through in a close-range high-g jink. It's no different than barrel rolling in terms of the mechanism.

 

At this point, if you see it done to you, conserve missiles (just launch a few as you close in to make him screw up his SA) and set up for a good dogfight - you'll more than likely be able to get the advantage, just make sure you dodge all of HIS missiles.

 

I knew that the chaff was/is over effective but i hadnt heard of this zigzagging to cause abberant missile tracking such that you can just walze ahead fearless:(

 

So the zigzagging causes the missile to not track? How?

[*Rage*]

At this point, if you see it done to you, conserve missiles (just launch a few as you close in to make him screw up his SA) and set up for a good dogfight - you'll more than likely be able to get the advantage, just make sure you dodge all of HIS missiles.

 

Problem is:

 

1) You cant see it done till youve wasted at least 2-3 missiles as the subtle zigzag is impercebtible to you on the MFD/HUD

 

2) His SA is always preserved since he's just swaying left and right by a few degrees...always pointing at you.

 

3) Infact its your SA which is degraded as you try and dodge his missiles while his nose is (pendulously) pointed at you.

 

4) At no point do you have the advantage.

[S77th-konkussion]

um... exploit? Jinking and causing a missile to waste it's energy is an unfair advantage?

 

Cmon man. We don't need another discussion about how badly LOMAC missiles suck, but I'd say that -if his jinking is working as an avoidance tactic- You need to close the distance some. Every turn a missile makes lengthens the distance it travels. You might be within parameters at launch, but with some distance and manuevering you can EASILY cause the missile to falll outside the envelope enroute.

[*Rage*]

You might be within parameters at launch, but with some distance and manuevering you can EASILY cause the missile to falll outside the envelope enroute.

 

You said it. Manuevering. Is a gentle sway left and right a maneuvre in the traditional sense of missile avoidance? I wouldnt say so.

[S77th-konkussion]

With the pursuit logic modeling that we have- why not? First- the modeled range of the slammer is... well you know.

 

A hard maneuver is going to slow a target down. Depending on the range- this might make the missiles job easier, not harder. The more range you have, then these somewhat more relaxed turns will

 

1. keep the target's speed higher- thus increasing the overall workload of the missile.

 

2. The turns will prompt the missile's guidance to adjust- it might be a lower effort adjustment, but the length of that adjustment is wasting energy the whole time.

 

Bottom line is - close the distance to improve the missile's energy reserve as it closes on the target.

 

This is speaking purely within the confines of LOMAC's modeling. If this is the Slammer in question- that makes all of this a lot worse.

[*Rage*]

With the pursuit logic modeling that we have- why not? First- the modeled range of the slammer is... well you know.

 

A hard maneuver is going to slow a target down. Depending on the range- this might make the missiles job easier, not harder. The more range you have, then these somewhat more relaxed turns will

 

1. keep the target's speed higher- thus increasing the overall workload of the missile.

 

The turns will prompt the missile's guidance to adjust- it might be a lower effort adjustment, but the length of that adjustment is wasting energy the whole time.

 

Bottom line is - close the distance to improve the missile's energy reserve as it closes on the target.

 

We all know lomac missiles suck. I see what you are saying...but...these are not turns. Neither are they maneuvres in my opinion. Infact at 40km the missile shouldnt even notice this gentle sway let alone take some exagerrated (?lead) pursuit logic pointlessly draining away its E.

 

Im my opinion that makes it something of an exploit.

[GGTharos]

Are you certain its gentle? THAT is a bit surprising ... at least closer in. Missiles do max-g turns to adjust their aimpoint, which makes a left-right jink very effective in LO (in RL they restrict g's until closer) since that aimpoint moves a LOT at range.

The chaff compounds issues, undoubtedly. Do you have a track/ACMI? It might look gentle to you but it might be quite violent in fact.

[*Rage*]

Are you certain its gentle? THAT is a bit surprising ... at least closer in. Missiles do max-g turns to adjust their aimpoint, which makes a left-right jink very effective in LO (in RL they restrict g's until closer) since that aimpoint moves a LOT at range.

The chaff compounds issues, undoubtedly. Do you have a track/ACMI? It might look gentle to you but it might be quite violent in fact.

 

Unfortunatey I didnt record one. If I get another chance then I will.

[Pilotasso]

zigzaging affects all missiles in LOMAC, not just the Su's. BTW I had to swich to russias birds in order to be able to hit something lately. So you see its hard for everybody, but it even afects more the US side.

[cool_t]

:)

 

You said it. Manuevering. Is a gentle sway left and right a maneuvre in the traditional sense of missile avoidance? I wouldnt say so.

 

 

Any time a missile is seaking a target it puts its self into a lead persute. All missiles need to move in order to intecept a target. Its best that you start your moves at the get go, always stay one step ahead of the bandits moves.

 

Bleeding a missiles energy is not that hard to do, remember Missiles have a limited amount of fuel and slowing them down is easy to do. But with slowing them down remember to not become into a posistion where your closer to a bandit.

 

:joystick:

[*Rage*]

zigzaging affects all missiles in LOMAC, not just the Su's. BTW I had to swich to russias birds in order to be able to hit something lately. So you see its hard for everybody, but it even afects more the US side.

 

This isnt about it affecting 27s more than f15s or vice versa. Its clear that this probably affects all missiles and therefore all planes.

 

This isnt about 27 vs 15 or aim7 vs 120 vs 27er etc etc, its about pilot A using exploit that pilot B doesnt necessarily know about.

 

Thne point of this discussion is to figure out if this is an exploit, and whether people know about it (and use it?)

[S77th-GOYA]

Rage, ask your buddy to try it again but without chaff. Chances are he will gently sway until a missile hits his teeth.

[S77th-konkussion]

Sorry. Not an exploit in the "cheating" sense. It's poor modeling on a variety of things.

[*Rage*]

Rage, ask your buddy to try it again but without chaff. Chances are he will gently sway until a missile hits his teeth.

 

Hope so.:)

[S77th-konkussion]

Hope so.:)

 

Depending on the range at which you fired- yep.

[*Rage*]

Sorry. Not an exploit in the "cheating" sense. It's poor modeling on a variety of things.

 

I didnt want to start another 50 page thread but I cant resist biting on this..

 

Surely an exploit is when you take advantage of poor modelling (ecm blinking/ET landmines/ sub 20m flying for missile evasion - all of which ive noticed is much less common now).

[159th_Viper]

 

Surely an exploit is when you take advantage of poor modelling (ecm blinking/ET landmines/ sub 20m flying for missile evasion........

 

Hell Yeah I'd agree with you there.

 

Exploits - It's there for all to consider and use and/or abuse as the Individual deems fit. Sure - there are numerous numbers of Abhorrent Flaws in LockOn as highlighted Countless times in Numerous Threads to date - all you need to do is follow the Locked Threads and Body Count.........

 

Point Is - We are ALL affected by the same Flaws.........It is up to the Individual concerned to tailor his Flight acoordingly, be it having regard to a particular action which he may deem an exploit, but others not, and visa versa.......

 

The above is Highlighted by the fact that certain servers allow certain practices, whilst others do not. Now there i in my opinion absolutely nothing wrong with this practice - each to their own! The best thing to do is to ensure that all are aware of the Weaknesses of the Simulation and then, dependant on your propensity, choose the scenario which best suites your needs.

 

A practice which should be discouraged in my opinion is the tendancy to go on a 'Witch-Hunt' every time a 'Nefarious' practice raises it's head........

 

We are all Bound by the Inherent Constraints of the Simulation - what we can do is Choose HOW we play the Game. And until the eventual release of a Patch, or modification of the Source Code by a talented individual, choosing how we play the Game and more Importantly, with Whom we take to the Virtual Skies will just have to suffice :)

[Aeroscout]

Question about 20m flying... is this over land too or just water...

 

And I hope you don't mean terrain masking is an exploit. I fly behind mountains all the time online and I hope that's not "cheating"

[GGTharos]

It's over anything for the 20m.

 

It's funny that people call everything an exploit ... I mean what are you going to do, sit there and do nothing in fear of ... doing something that's an exploit? Seriously.