Vikhr too weak

[Taz1004]

Reporting 2 bugs with attached track file.

 

Issue 1: Either Vikhr is too weak or M1 front armor is too strong. First M1 I shot in this track took 3 Vikhrs from the front. The last one in this track, I repositioned to test the front armor and fired 5 remaining Vikhrs and still couldn't kill it.

Now when I replayed this track, it showed that I killed the first one with 2 shots. And I fired 3rd one on dead tank. I'm sure everyone's aware of the track file inaccuracy. But you can count the shots I fired on each tank to see how many shots it took.

 

Issue 2: On most of the shots showed wrong range to target. The last one for example, when I locked it up, it was around 6km. After I fired, it changed to 9km. Actual distance when measured from F10 is 6km. But it's keep showing wrong range and if I move the cursor around and lock it up again, then it shows correct range but after launching, it changes back to wrong range again.

 

All mods were uninstalled.

Open Beta 2.5.6.53756

Replays in slow motion and Tacview confirmed all missiles were on target.

 

Track download link

 

http://www.tripod3d.com/brian/dcs/M1_Vikhr_02.trk

Edited August 22, 2020 by Taz1004

[Taz1004]

Just as a test, I boosted Vikhr's mass by 10x in warheads.lua to 80. And expl mass to 40. And still took 4 Vikhrs to destroy M1.

Modded value I'm assuming wont translate in track file so I recorded this one. Explosion of 10x stronger Vikhr is pretty cool btw.

 

Once agian, it took 4 missiles when playing but replay showing it destroyed on 3rd shot.

 

 

I'm currently on GOW mission where I have to kill 16 M1's. Wingman's still useless so I used Vikhr on inboard hardpoint mod to carry 24 of them. But with this issue, I still can't complete that mission even with 24. Only way I guess is use unlimited weapons.

[DrBackJack]

Don't aim for the most armored part of a tank.

[Mars Exulte]

Look at the RHA penetration value for a Vikhr.

Look at the RHA of aan M1A2 Abrams on the front.

 

Vikhr is about a 1,000 RHA penetration, according to Wiki, unreliable but probably ballparkish.

 

Abrams is 1800-2000 RHA across the front hull and especially turret.

 

Conclusion : You will not hurt an Abrams from the front with a Vikhr. Period. In real life or the game. No matter how many you fire.

 

Lesson to be learned : Do not shoot tanks in their thick frontal armor. Anything over a T-55/M60 is likely to flip you off. Russian tanks will likely flip you off then shoot back with an ATGM (guns are limited to about 4k, but the ATGMs can reach well past that.)

 

Tactics. Use them.

[Fri13]

Just get to the flank and you get them down.

You can get them from the front too, but just don't aim to the turret, but still it you are likely unlucky and just waste missile.

[Fri13]

Vikhr is about a 1,000 RHA penetration, according to Wiki, unreliable but probably ballparkish.

 

That 1000 mm RHA is after the ERA. So armor without ERA is going to have a higher penetration value, likely around a 1300-1500 mm (can be as well so low as 1100-1200 mm as the first penetrator doesn't need to be powerful to blow up the ERA).

 

But what comes to M1 and M1IP armor, the best data available really is from Steel Beasts, designed for the military training purposes for the tankers.

 

Why the front hull has so high values (1200-1500 against HEAT) is that it is directly from the front, not from higher angles. What is a problematic as when a HEAT shell is shot at range, it will drop at high angle on the armor.

There are the common problems where the obvious weak points as the driver and commander hatches are very easily penetrated with lower scale weapons. That is what happened not so long time ago to M1A2 where training round impacted in training a another from over 2.5 km range.

But that is nothing compared to a Persian Gulf invasion where own unit engaged own troops.

 

What comes to DCS, the problem is that its terrain engine doesn't simulate the realistic warfare where ground units has plenty of cover against other ground units and against a air threats. Where helicopters will have challenges to engage them without flying higher, in the line of sight for the short range AA. And fighters would have challenge to even find them, even less to actually hit them.

 

But the ground side in DCS is a "billiard table" kind situation at this moment (btw, Syrian Map is fairly good in this case at some manner).

[Taz1004]

Don't aim for the most armored part of a tank.

 

I am aware. This was a test. This was not my first encounter with M1's. Point was that it's different than before. If you're replying after watching the YouTube video only, yes on that tank, I purposely fired directly on front armor to see how many it will take with 10x mass. But in the track file, I think I have few examples of attacking slightly from the side.

 

Another odd thing is that it's inconsistent. If Vikhr's not supposed to penetrate M1's front armor, it should never happen as zhukov said. But sometimes, I can kill it directly from the front with 1 shot.

This inconsistency is also reported on the other thread regarding Mi-28.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Taz1004

[Taz1004]

Erratic is all I can say. This one survived hit from the side. I am not even sure if this is issue with M1 or Vikhr. Needs more testing.

 

 

I can accept that missiles are not 100% efficient and sometimes they can miss. But what bothers me is the unrealistic expectation of campaign missions. Most of them requires you to be perfect. How am I supposed to kill off 16 M1's with this kind of efficiency? With unreliable wingman?

 

GOW ATO B-P2.2. Kill 4 stationary M1's and column of 4 M1's and 1 Avenger pops up. Heading "towards" you. Flanking it means going into SAM territory so you need more Vikhrs for those. If you kill off first M1, they scatter into indestructible trees. Often only giving you "frontal" option. I also tried waiting until they're clear of trees to attack and they took ambush position inside trees before getting to the clear area.

 

Somehow you kill them and that was only the first objective. 4 more stationary M1's and once you kill them off, another column of 4 M1's and Avenger pops up. I'm also fine with not being superman and not having to kill everything myself. But miss any of the target and if they destroy friendly convoy, it's the dreaded "Court Martial"

 

What kind of Tactics can I employ in this situation?

Edited August 22, 2020 by Taz1004

[Fri13]

So maybe it's accurate I don't know? I would think you should be able to damage the tracks?

 

The DCS doesn't model the tracks or such impacts. You have more like just "side hit", "front hit" and "rear hit" kind elements. And all is in scale of 0-100% Healt Points.

 

In the future there is new damage model coming, first to WW2 aircrafts and then later to ground units and then finally to other modern modules.

[Fri13]

I can accept that missiles are not 100% efficient and sometimes they can miss. But what bothers me is the unrealistic expectation of campaign missions. Most of them requires you to be perfect. How am I supposed to kill off 16 M1's with this kind of efficiency? With unreliable wingman?

 

Many missions are completely unrealistic because those expectations.

If you have a 4x MBT platoon, you need to mobility kill two to render the platoon useless. It capability to continue engagement is gone. Even one can render its function to operate only at limited capability.

 

But as we do not have these kind effects, we are fighting a unrealistic war to begin with as everything is "kill" or "no-kill" really.

[Taz1004]

This one survived two shots from front left. Second shot I aimed towards side rear and still made no difference. This occurs too often for it to be just unlucky.

 

 

Based on further testing, issue seems to be only with Vikhr. Hellfire had no issue killing M1's with just one missile from any angle. Vikhr also had similar issue with T90's altho a bit less frequent than with M1. But did not have any issue destroying T72's with one Vikhr from any aspect.

 

Firing two Vikhr in salvo so far has 100% kill on M1 regardless of aspect.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Taz1004

[Mars Exulte]

The DCS doesn't model the tracks or such impacts. You have more like just "side hit", "front hit" and "rear hit" kind elements. And all is in scale of 0-100% Healt Points.

 

In the future there is new damage model coming, first to WW2 aircrafts and then later to ground units and then finally to other modern modules.

 

The Abrams is modeled in more detail than just ''front'' ''left'' etc, though I believe it's the only one. An early test bed for more detailed CA. According to a convo.with ShadowKT a few months ago, when he pulled the data out of the vehicle files.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean much when stuff can glitch out weirdly, or there's an issue with the Vikhr specifically etc etc

[Raven434th]

just stumbled on this thread ...late for the party.

 

What must be said is that tank armor is designed to defend from enemy tanks...frontally...not so much from top down attacks from helos. Vikhrs can and should kill tanks.upper hull armor is weak...top turret armor is weak...so are turret ring shots.Unless of course it has armor protection system to shoot incomming projectiles.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Raven434th