[RESOLVED] CCRP steering cues

[Steph21]

Once you have designated a target in CCRP mode, steering cues appears around the diamond (look like small wings).

If i remember correctly, they used to indicate on which side to turn to stay aligned, by placing your wings in the same way that the cue wings. For example, if left cue wing was down and right cue wing was up, it indicates to turn left to stay aligned on the target.

 

Since a couple of updates, the cues show the opposite.

 

Am i mad ? :huh:

 

I'm pretty sure i'm not as back in the days, i found it very intuitive. And now i'm always turning in the wrong direction, so i'm pretty sure it has been inverted and i'm guessing it's a bug

[myHelljumper]

Once you have designated a target in CCRP mode, steering cues appears around the diamond (look like small wings).

If i remember correctly, they used to indicate on which side to turn to stay aligned, by placing your wings in the same way that the cue wings. For example, if left cue wing was down and right cue wing was up, it indicates to turn left to stay aligned on the target.

 

Since a couple of updates, the cues show the opposite.

 

Am i mad ? :huh:

 

I'm pretty sure i'm not as back in the days, i found it very intuitive. And now i'm always turning in the wrong direction, so i'm pretty sure it has been inverted and i'm guessing it's a bug

 

You are right, they have been inverted, but RB said that was a bug and the AdA asked them to put the current system in place as it is more realistic

 

You have to think of them as deviation indication, not turn indicator. That's how I understand them anyway ^^.

[Steph21]

You are right, they have been inverted, but RB said that was a bug and the AdA asked them to put the current system in place as it is more realistic

 

You have to think of them as deviation indication, not turn indicator. That's how I understand them anyway ^^.

 

Ok thanks

[jojo]

You are right, they have been inverted, but RB said that was a bug and the AdA asked them to put the current system in place as it is more realistic

 

You have to think of them as deviation indication, not turn indicator. That's how I understand them anyway ^^.

 

I don’t understand :huh:

[myHelljumper]

I don’t understand :huh:

 

What is it that your don't understand ?

[jojo]

You're saying the system is bugged but it was requested as it's more realistic.

 

AFAIK, after designation, the wings appears.

You should maintain the wings leveled for the bombs to go on target.

 

After designation, if you drift to the right, the wings should roll to the left to bring you back.

The closer you get, the wings should return level so you "un-roll".

 

Sorry, I don't understand your "deviation indication" Vs "turn indicator".

 

The best I can think of is that it should be "roll order".

Edited September 12, 2020 by jojo

[Frederf]

It depends on if "wings" are supposed to be flight director or position indicator. Mirage 2000 in DCS is not a flight director because satisfying symbol alignment will not result in good accuracy. And yet visual design suggests it's a flight director because the indicating element fits neatly inside the the flight path mark symbol.

[myHelljumper]

You're saying the system is bugged but it was requested as it's more realistic.

 

AFAIK, after designation, the wings appears.

You should maintain the wings leveled for the bombs to go on target.

 

After designation, if you drift to the right, the wings should roll to the left to bring you back.

The closer you get, the wings should return level so you "un-roll".

 

Sorry, I don't understand your "deviation indication" Vs "turn indicator".

 

The best I can think of is that it should be "roll order".

 

Oh I see where I was unclear.

 

The previous system was not like the real one, the current system is like the real one according to the AdA.

 

And you should not see the wings as steering/roll commands, they are deviation indicators, just like ILS needles or the course deviation thingy on an HSI :).

 

That's how I understood it anyway.

[jojo]

OK, I did the test.

 

- designate the target

- roll right to offset

- the "wings" roll to the right. The more you are offset, the greater the angle to the offset side.

 

It's a bug.

It's rolling on the opposite side.

 

One step forward, one step back. :cry:

We already had this bug in the past...

Edited September 13, 2020 by jojo

[myHelljumper]

OK, I did the test.

 

- designate the target

- roll right to offset

- the "wings" roll to the right. The more you are offset, the greater the angle to the offset side.

 

It's a bug.

It's rolling on the opposite side.

 

One step forward, one step back. :cry:

We already had this bug in the past...

 

I'm not so sure, according to Zeus that's how it's supposed to be.

 

Quote from the m-2000c channel on the Razbam discord from the 23/04/2020

CCRP improvements:

- Fixed the target on elevation (can be configured in the radar.lua script file).

- The - - wings are now more responsive at values less than 6.5 degrees, allowing for a better correction.

- Wings movement has changed:

When the wings are \, the aircraft is moving ==> so you need to move it <--

When the wings are /, the aircraft is moving <== so you need to move it -->

With the wings level - -, the aircraft is centered on the target in azimuth.

I think that I have eliminated errors in azimuth.

Errors in elevation are more tricky since they involve the aircraft pitch. Basically you have to dive on the target at least 10 degrees to reduce elevation errors.

 

As I said, they are deviation indicators, not steering commands.

[jojo]

Attack run at 10'00".

10'12" : first target designation, heading 223° (heading tape). The plane is drifting to the right. Heading increases to the right to 225° and the roll order is tilted to the left.

10'15" : second designation, reset of the roll order (level). During the pull up for release, the pilot correct into the roll order, not away from it (slight oscillation).

 

Mirage 2000N at Red Flag 1995

 

It's less obvious here, but at 28'33" the pilot still corrects into the wings. Mirage 2000B, same HUD display as Mirage 2000N. (to watch in slow motion :D)

Edited September 13, 2020 by jojo

[Frederf]

It's not really possible to tell how directive those symbols are but certainly if you're right of target the thing tells you to bank left. That much is clear.

 

One thing I found odd in DCS is the indicator will rotate so far around that it looks like it's telling you to bank the wrong way because it's at least 180 degrees rotated. That seems really weird. Why not peg the symbol at near 90 degree bank?

[Steph21]

Yeah strange, why AdA would have asked to correct it if it was correct...but the video show clearly the old behaviour.

 

Razbam might have understood it wrong, like for rho input for BAD when they changed it in km from AdA input, and then changed it back to Nm.

[El Chapo]

In fact in this situation if you are on horizontal navigation mode (NAVH) on the Mirage 2000D, the autopilot will follow the cues.

So these are not just an "indication", these are true orders that the pilot has to follow.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Yeah strange, why AdA would have asked to correct it if it was correct...but the video show clearly the old behaviour.

 

Razbam might have understood it wrong, like for rho input for BAD when they changed it in km from AdA input, and then changed it back to Nm.

 

Hi Steph, if you can confirm this still present in the latest update from 23/09/2020. If so, please attach a new .trk file.

[Ramsay]

Hi Steph, if you can confirm this still present in the latest update from 23/09/2020. If so, please attach a new .trk file.

 

I can confirm the "new" behaviour is still present in 2.5.6.55363.

 

However I can't confirm it's a bug, just different, rather than "flying" the HUD diamond to follow the "winglets", we now fly the "winglets" to follow the diamond.

 

It is a little difficult, having built up the muscle memory, etc. to follow the winglets, to now roll in the opposite direction to counter their error.

 

Attached is a track with 3 CCRP passes

 

1. I "fly" the HUD diamond to follow the winglets and they fly me off course

2. I roll right when the winglet rolls left (I mess up at the end, so the bombs fall to the left)

3. Same as pass 2 but I don't mess up and the bombs are on target.

 

The track appears to play back correctly with the only difference being that only 3 trucks are destroyed on the last pass, while in the original flight it was 4.

 

Tested at Kobuleti in Open Beta 2.5.6.55363

M2K CCRP HUD Diamond winglets, 2_5_6_55363.trk

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Ill pass this along to the team and the SME for review.

 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Moody1204]

Ill pass this along to the team and the SME for review.

 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Hi Elmo,

 

 

Here is another track file concerning the CCRP cue.

 

 

You'll see that after designation, if you roll left, the cue still indicate to roll left (instead of rolling right to line up with the designation point).

 

 

Same behaviour if you roll right.

 

 

I know it's not on your side, but please, don't tell us that this is the "normal" behaviour, it's not (see the videos JoJo posted earlier). Shit happens when coding, in this case it just need to be "inverted"

 

 

Thanks for your work !

M2k_CCRP_cue_bug.trk

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Behavior of the CCRP cue is AS INTEDED. Moving to RESOLVED

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

CORRECTION, it appears that there was a mistranslation on how the CCRP cue's behaviour works and is being reconfigured. This will be re-worked an implemented at the earliest possible convenience. Apologies for the mix up. 

[jojo]

1 hour ago, RAZBAM_ELMO said:

CORRECTION, it appears that there was a mistranslation on how the CCRP cue's behaviour works and is being reconfigured. This will be re-worked an implemented at the earliest possible convenience. Apologies for the mix up. 

Yeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhh 

 

Just make it the same as CCRP + PI and it will be perfect