Questions about SEAD missions

[muamshai]

1. Is it possible for an enemy radar to be in listening mode/passive mode? I mean listening to enemy airborne radar frequencies to check if there's an enemy in the air?

 

2. If the answer of above question is yes, is it possible for SEAD aircraft to lock and launch HARM missile on enemy radar in listening state/passive mode?

 

3. If a radar is in active state, and if enemy fires missile on it, so will the missile hit that radar even it is turned off? If yes, then what might be the countermeasure against incoming HARM missile?

[p_o_d_2_2]

Don't know about 1 and 2, but I'm pretty sure that a HARM remembers the location of the radar its heading for so that even if it turns off, it will still know where to go.

[DarkWanderer]

1.Haven't heard about such systems, but they can be implemented into standart receiver construction. So - maybe.

2.Theoretically - no. Just because it is passive. But in practice noone will wait a gift from the sky with the radar off.

3.HARM's have a inertial navigation system which used, for example, to defeat complexes of SAM sites with pulse radiation mode. When the radiation source is off, it just flies straight to the last known target position.

I recommend you the Falcon manual, section about SAM.

[159th_Viper]

No Need for anything as Fancy as a coupla HARM's to neutralize a SAM site........Just Ingress at 10m AGL, land at a suitable clearing/road, climb out and Cap the lotta them with your Regulation Issue 9MM Service Pistol :D

 

In LockOn that is...................:P

[GGTharos]

Yup. Depending on your strategy and tactics, it might be standard procedure. Or there might be a dedicated listening asset like a rivet joint etc. In MOST but not all cases, you'd want to mix passive and active, since active is more likely to get you something, as far as surveillance goes.

 

1. Is it possible for an enemy radar to be in listening mode/passive mode? I mean listening to enemy airborne radar frequencies to check if there's an enemy in the air?

 

Nope - at least not in ARM mode, but your ground-mapping radar might paint him for a laser/gps/dump weapon attack.

 

2. If the answer of above question is yes, is it possible for SEAD aircraft to lock and launch HARM missile on enemy radar in listening state/passive mode?

 

3. If a radar is in active state, and if enemy fires missile on it, so will the missile hit that radar even it is turned off? If yes, then what might be the countermeasure against incoming HARM missile?

 

The missile won't necessarily hit. Let's look at some history:

First, there are some HARMs that are better than others. The AGM-88 managed to prove itself fairly dumb, allowing radar operators to trick it by turning the targeted radar off, and turning another one on in a different location, causing the missile to fly that way instead. The INS can accumulate a lot of error and the missile might miss the radar site entirely, assuming it managed to figure out the target position properly.

 

The new HARM is equipped with a GPS and, launched with excellent data (radar coordinates triangulated through RWR or by radar mapping for example) it can attack the target blind. For those times where it must be launched very quickly, the GPS will enable it to triangulate and accurately fly to the target radar even if the radar is shut down. In addition (and this was doable with INS too, but they DIDN't do it) the missile can be a lot smarter about choosing a different target if the radar is shut down and another like it is turned on.

 

 

SO again, your HARM mileage may vary depending on manufacturer etc ;)

[RedTiger]

First, there are some HARMs that are better than others. The AGM-88 managed to prove itself fairly dumb, allowing radar operators to trick it by turning the targeted radar off, and turning another one on in a different location, causing the missile to fly that way instead. The INS can accumulate a lot of error and the missile might miss the radar site entirely, assuming it managed to figure out the target position properly.

 

Flashing radars off and on to defeat a HARM, eh? Sounds like something from LOMAC! :lol:

 

Sorry about that, the peanut gallery has nothing more to add. :D

[GGTharos]

^^^^

I don't know why that's so funny ... a real jammer does all the flashing for you ... on, off, on, off ... it's just that you don't have to flip a switch like a monkey. It'll flip its own switch when it thinks it should ;)

 

'Radar blinking' is also a real tactic name, IIRC, but it requires more than one radar.

[muamshai]

Thanks guys for the replies.

So I guess that the latest HARM didn't encounter the latest SAM radar as of yet so we probably don't know about the cuntermeasure strategies by SAM radar against HARM?

[GGTharos]

We don't really know one way or another ;)

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

1. Is it possible for an enemy radar to be in listening mode/passive mode? I mean listening to enemy airborne radar frequencies to check if there's an enemy in the air?

 

Since you talk about ARM's later on in your post, then I assume you are discussing a SAM radar.

 

A typical SAM system has two types of radar. First - a search radar that does the initial detection of a target and forms a track of its course. Second - a tracking radar that handles the engagement tracking and target illumination.

A typical engagement is as follows. The search radar detects the bandit and starts target tracking it as each revolution of the search radar detects it. A target track can be formed that shows the bandit course, speed. Once the bandit is in engagement range, then the tracking radar is moved to point at the bandit and switched on. Once it has locked onto the bandit, then a missile can be launched when the bandit is in range.

 

A typical search radar actually spends most of its time "listening". It transmits a pulse, then listens for a reply reflected from a target. The time taken for the reply to be seen gives you the range to the target. The direction of the radar antenna (or the beam of an electronically steered beam) gives you the direction of the target. The radar will have electronics to suppress any spurious signal (ie noise) that could not be a genuine reply reflected from a target. If the radar was simply listening all the time without transmitting, then any received signal would be regarded as noise and suppressed.

 

So what you are talking about isn't radar. If you are talking about an electronic device that detects an enemy aircraft's radar emissions, then you are talking about an ESM system (something similar to the RWR in an aircraft).

 

 

 

2. If the answer of above question is yes, is it possible for SEAD aircraft to lock and launch HARM missile on enemy radar in listening state/passive mode?

 

As I believe your concept of listening state/passive mode is not realistic, then this question isn't pertinent.

 

3. If a radar is in active state, and if enemy fires missile on it, so will the missile hit that radar even it is turned off? If yes, then what might be the countermeasure against incoming HARM missile?

 

If you are talking about the ability of an ARM to guide onto a SAM radar that has been switched off, then yes it is technically possible. If the ARM has the position of the SAM radar fixed accurately enough, it is possible for it to continue on its flight path despite the SAM radar being switched off.

 

Other missiles such as the British ALARM have the capability to zoom up to high altitude (40,000ft) and deploy a parachute when the signal dissapears, the missile then slowly descends on the parachute looking for a signal. When the radar is switched back on again, the missile ditches the parachute and re-engages the radar.

 

You should also consider that when the radar is "switched off", it usually is not actually switched off, rather the radar output is diverted to a dummy load and most radar systems will still leak some signals, sometimes enough for an ARM to guide onto the radar.

 

Countermeasures include decoys. Many years ago I worked on a radar system that included decoys that could accurately mimic the main radar. When under attack, the radar could be switched off and the decoys would transmit using the same frequency, PRF, power etc and be indistinguishable from the main radar. As the decoys were small, there was always a good chance they might survive the attack and remain usable for subsequent attacks.

[RedTiger]

^^^^

I don't know why that's so funny ... a real jammer does all the flashing for you ... on, off, on, off ... it's just that you don't have to flip a switch like a monkey. It'll flip its own switch when it thinks it should ;)

 

'Radar blinking' is also a real tactic name, IIRC, but it requires more than one radar.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know. C'mon, you can't see the humor...*sigh* nevermind. :noexpression: ;)

[Святой]

Does anybody has any information about true combat effectiveness of ARMs as weapon (hit ratio, fire missiles per damaged or destroyed enemy units)? Information about last ARM models (such as HARM and ALARM) in last conflicts (Lybia 1986, Iraq 1991, Yugoslavia 1999, Iraq 1991-2003) most desired.

I have opinion that even last models of ARMs still very inaccuracy (it has worse accuracy than any guided weapon type beacuse of ARM homing method principial disadvantages) and ineffective as weapon, but still very effective as supression measure (ЕСM).

[GGTharos]

You're quite right Saint. I can try to find sources, though before I do this, basically what I've heard is that a large number of SAMs were fired in Yugoslavia and only a few hit anything due to radar blinking and poor HARM programming in terms of staying on the same target if a similar source presents itself elsewhere. In addition, because HARM calls were sent in clear radio, radar operators knew when exactly to employ evasive tactics.

ALARM allegedly did quite a bit better for shot-to-hit ratio - it probably had a better method for geo-locating its target, or didn't ignore geo-location when another source presented itself, and focused on trying to hit its original target instead. I believe the parachute loiter helped a whole lot.

 

And obviously it does make for a good supression measure - which is why the mission is SEAD and not DEAD :)

[59th_LeFty]

Thread resurrection mode ON

...

 

Do anyone enconutered real, OR sim-based, specified 'SEAD tactics' for modern aircrafts? I'd be interested in one of those... Tried many google-hits, but no luck so far.

[GGTharos]

This is because they are mostly classified I imagine.

 

Google for BVR tactics for example. You will find techniques, but not tactics.

[59th_LeFty]

Yep, I've also thinked about these. I've found many reviews of recent conflicts, from Vietnam to Kosovo. But they're mainly overwievs of how should a whole Air Force fight SAMs, not aircrafts.

[lawndartleo]

2. If the answer of above question is yes, is it possible for SEAD aircraft to lock and launch HARM missile on enemy radar in listening state/passive mode?

 

Can you hear me listening to you? As you said, listening is passive.

[Warbird_242]

SEAD tactics? I know that the USAF 'wild weasels' will fly effing low! Is that what you meant? :D

[lawndartleo]

Wild weasle tactic is to make yourself an inviting target to get the enemy to shoot at you so you can shoot at them. Of all the pilots out there, I think these guys have the most faulty wiring (and I say that with the utmost respect and admiration).

 

I'm willing to bet the majority of these guys are from the deep south where most accidental deaths start out something like, "Hey Cletus, watch this!" To willingingly incite the enemy to throw the best A2A defences they have at you, that takes some stones.

[Warbird_242]

hahaha perfect example