How can i figure if the R27er missed its target?

[nscode]

here's one thing that actually makes the whole should or should not track bit pointless... online of course... I've had many... and I mean many times where missile was in perfect aspect and firing range and tracking its target... only to fail to hit it and flying right by it... I have to blame this one on either really poor networking code, or peoples (or mine) internet connection... who knows... my point being... I can't rely on things like this at all... I've seen way too much no-way to happen things when flying online... kinda really kills the whole thing for me at that point.

 

 

 

so what :) you just had a bad missile ;)

[GGTharos]

Yep ... realistically a missile of that era could easily fail to guide - a step up from the previous era where it could realistically fail to light the rocket at all and it would drop straight off your rails :D

[Frostie]

We've all seen the reconstructions in the Dogfights series, Phantom F-4's shooting Aim-7's and watching them go dead off the rail when in perfect firing line against MiG's. ER's going dead while frustrating adds a degree of realism at least but sometimes its just plain irritating.

[Kuky]

well that would all be fair enough if the OTHER GUY would be subject to same "realism" and not that I get hit by a missile that I saw (and what tacview showed) as going straight into the ground ;) not to mention that this same missile (ET) was fired from 20Km and had to be LA :music_whistling: so yeah sure... why complain.. it's realistic aye that my missile in perfect solution goes right by him and his missile completely unrealistically being fired and showing going for the ground... and yet it hits me.. that's just bolocks so plase don't talk about realism here :doh:

Edited April 7, 2009 by Kuky

[GGTharos]

I see my AIM-7's and 120's go stupid often enough ... there's no reason that he has to be 'subject to realism' at the same time as you are. Same with lag (which is one major flaw in the network!) :D

[Kuky]

Sorry but you know what GG... it would be fair enough to see same kind of thing being randomly occuring (missiles not hitting where they have good firing solution) but this happens only with certain people... I mean against certain people when flying online. See I have same connection doesn't matter who I fly with or against... yet only some "uber" people get away from getting hit with this absurd luck of my missiles being just plain dumb... I don't buy this... not any more... it's not just network lag etc... it's very obvious few people have learned soe ways to actually cheat... and now I actually thought about this last night and came up with this:

 

The only reason I love flying flight sims is because I love fighter aircraft... I respect the pilots and I admire the engineers and everyone begin involved into designing, testing, and flying one. It fils me with joy to have the oportunity to at least get some parts of what it would be like to be a fighter pilot... with this in mind I have to note that for this same passion for the REAL thing I also want to try and learn to fly in sim the way real aricraft would be flown by real pilots... and this brings me to my statement:

 

If you have passion for aircraft and love flying and would like to experience the same then people should not resourt with some lame trickery just so they get to say "hey I killed you, you didn't kille me... I am super pilot" and this kind of crap behavious... people have the honesty and dignity when doing this. These flight sims should not be about who kills more... at least not by trickery and learning exploits of the software. Have the respect and will to do it "right way" learn to fly the aircraft the way it should be flown... there is no point in flying with 13G in turn if you've managed to do this by some exploit of the game... it's dishonest... if the real thing can't do this then have the decency not to try to break these "rules" of realism... if you're not able to fire that bloody ET if you don't have seaker lock.. then come on... don't be as lame and go.. "ah who cares.. I wanna kill this guy"

 

This is not skill... at least it's not what being a fighter pilot is about... at least I believe it should not be... if you love flying, if you love and respect the pilots and what they do... why not try and be like that yourself? If you see you suck and not being able to get kills the "right way" then maybe you should just learn some other propper trickery what real pilots COULD do in real life... that's using tactics and simply outsmarting the enemy...but by realsitically available means.

[GGTharos]

Sorry but you know what GG... it would be fair enough to see same kind of thing being randomly occuring (missiles not hitting where they have good firing solution) but this happens only with certain people... I mean against certain people when flying online. See I have same connection doesn't matter who I fly with or against... yet only some "uber" people get away from getting hit with this absurd luck of my missiles being just plain dumb... I don't buy this... not any more... it's not just network lag etc... it's very obvious few people have learned soe ways to actually cheat... and now I actually thought about this last night and came up with this:

 

I can ditch your missiles every time by performing a realistic maneuver, and you can too - I can show you if you like. None of this head-on barrel rolling, chaff-diving/whatever-elsing cheap stuff - on a good day, you can clean your wings and nothing will hit me. On an average day, you'll shoot me down :P

 

I'll also tell you right now, a LOT of this stuff is network lag, and not necessarily on your part. Frankly, while some might be outright cheating (I don't count exploiting with this, I'd be losing hair if I did :P ) I think very few do. Lag (and not necessarily lag you can SEE) and LOMAC's own quirks can combine to cause a very frustrating experience. We've all seen weird things, including R-73's doing loop-de-loops to nail ya after overshooting.

 

 

This is not skill... at least it's not what being a fighter pilot is about... at least I believe it should not be... if you love flying, if you love and respect the pilots and what they do... why not try and be like that yourself? If you see you suck and not being able to get kills the "right way" then maybe you should just learn some other propper trickery what real pilots COULD do in real life... that's using tactics and simply outsmarting the enemy...but by realsitically available means.

 

I snipped some of the above because it was long! In general I agree with your sentiment, but I don't really care any longer about what people do on HL - I don't expect them to know nor heed what realism might be. They'll attack a 2-ship because they hope to at least take 1 with them, they don't care to save their plane. To them, what the game lets them do is what the game lets them do - so I just plan for it instead.

 

Sometimes I'll throw it back at them 'cause why not, but I try to not do it this way simply because I'll start falling back to 'Lockon Habits' and well, when a realistic DCS pointy-nose module comes out, I'll be paying for it ;)

 

Basically, while I agree with your sentiment I also thing that hey, it's a darned game, people will do whatever - so just know they will and don't get frustrated by it, just expect it and you'll start beating them at their own game, without necessarily having to play their game either.

 

Here's to hoping there's more guys like you flying the sim.

[Kuky]

I know GG, after all it is just a game... but I feel it should be and can be brought to much more than that. Aircraft are my passion and I love even just looking at them... to me they are beautifull... I wished I could become a figher pilot and tried to go military school back in Yugoslavia (actually I got into Military Highschool)... due to unfortunate events I never succeded... so it stays down for me to live my dream through flight sims... god I hope if DCS modules with fighters ever come out they so kick ass :D

Edited April 8, 2009 by Kuky

[GGTharos]

Bah it says I can't rep you :D

[borchi_2b]

to kuky and all the others who bitch about cheaters. it is true that there are ways of using the porg diffrent to reality. i have seen people do that an i know what they did cause i know that bug in the game too.

 

but please guys, stop bitching about the 27et.

in real life it is capable to fly balistically round about 68km. the seeker might be able to see targets at 20 but can only lock from 15

so how long does a missile travel blind then?

the 27et was never built to be used against fighters. no it was constructed to hit long range b52 bombers withput ay notice that they were shot at. and this is a real fact, cause b52 bombers are like christmas trees when we start to talk about heatseeking.

never the less. the missile is capable to do more then the seeker can and there are tactics in the russian af which define the override 27et firing procedures.

 

so please stop bitching about et override shots. to do so and shot an ET in override at a distance of 40km, it is way more skill required then the easy way of locking and shoting, cause you have to outthink your oponend when you shot override, which in the end means, yes i have been better.

[GGTharos]

There's no skill involved in it. You point the nose to the target intercept point and launch the sucker, then you leave.

The real thing would happily lock onto the sun, a cloud, or sun reflection from a lake at this point, not to mention probably heat up the seeker to uselessness flying all that distance, IF it was cooled at all (the LA-override is supposed to be an emergency launch procedure - ie. I need to get the missile OFF the wings because I can't jettisson it off that particular rail - no pyrotechnics for it).

 

I don't know what you're trying to say here, but the whole ET maddogging silliness is entirely unrealistic, and requires about as much skill as it takes to slice a tomato - most people will simply continue flying into them, and those who know it's being done to them will never get nailed by them. It has very little to do with anything -you- did.

 

And no, it had nothing to do with the bomber 'not knowing' ... it had everything to do with the jammer of that bomber completely owning your radar system and thus your radar guided missiles.

[Esac_mirmidon]

This is one of the reasons why i am a member of a squad , and all mates of this squad don´t use HL. We create our own campaigns and missions to fight between us, using "adecuate " tactics the more realistic, the better.

 

HL is pure fun but only fun, i went tired very fast. If you want something else, more real, more challenging, a squad is the best choice. Tons of fun, nice missions, real human pilots with his pros and cons and real FRIENDS that never cheats.

 

Only triying to do the best to shoot you down. Is another world.

[borchi_2b]

well i am a member of a squad, so i know what you tlk about.

 

and gg tharos, i knew about the jamming factors but, to be honest there are too many things that are not covered from you and me, which could be discussed for 1000 times. still a hard fact is, that if a mig or su27 pilots needs to hit the missle to about 70km, then they do it, no matter about cooling the seeker or any bullshit you say there. the seekers are capable to seek for about 90 sec, which means that they pass the 70km still seeking, so please to not talk bad about russian tech, although i favour more the us fighters. i can understnad it when you do say that there is no skill to the ET maddoging, because you never understood the way it works. i am not talking about a maddoging at 25km, not i talk about something that was nearly made imposible by ED. a maddoging at 50km and more

in lomac it is nearly impossible, cause after the missle stoped burning it is like opening a parachute at the end of the missile. please compare just in the engine of lomac the balistics of the 27er and 27et at 7000m

then get back to me and tell me if it is no skill to get somebody at the range of 50km who actuallly turns out of the missile tracking area before the missiles tracks.

i also read that you use the amraams right. so please do not talk about maddoging, caus no pilot in this community has never, the HL community, ever shot a real amraam, but fights like a pussy when you oppose them with a su27 or a mig29, and bitches about the missile should be better, it is way to unrealistic that it did not hit. sorry, but this is for all f15 wannabees out there, who have never understood what the f15 is all about. stop the turn and burn shit. no f15 pilot in real life would ever go that way unless he has no other chence, cause he makes himself blind on pourpose. lol

in comparison to reality, the lomac amraam is way to poewerfull, at least the tracking azimuth and the fact that they do not have a savety build in, LOL

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

So much wrong analysis that it just can't be dignified with a response.

[Kuky]

One more major flaw you missed Borchi... if someone points his nose at you at 50Km and maddogs a missile at you without even having radar on, did you ever ask yourself, how would someone in reality be able to see small fighter head on at 50Km distance? ;) That is to show if someone is able to see you at even beyond 20Km and points his nose at you and maddogs misslies like that and just turns tail... he's nothing but a nothing... there is no skill in that whatsoever... it's nothing but lame exploit of the game. Bottom line is you can't see a fighter at that distance... so unless you're actually using radar and have someone locked you have no other means by knowing where he is... you are just cheating yourself and reality because somehow the game allows you to see this far. You cal that skill? You gotta be kidding me.. that is no skill any pilot would have... a random PC gamer maybe that just looks for flaws and tricks to cheat ;)

Edited April 8, 2009 by Kuky

[104th_Crunch]

... if someone points his nose at you at 50Km and maddogs a missile at you without even having radar on, did you ever ask yourself, how would someone in reality be able to see small fighter head on at 50Km distance? ;) ...

 

A big +1 here. I would also say that some people cheat to make it that they can see fighters out further than 25Km in Lock On. It is very dishonest.

 

As for the maddogging of 27ETs, if in reality you can not launch override a 27ET without a valid seeker lock, then you shouldn't be able to do it in Lock On. Unfortunately, Lock On allows you to do it. If there was a reliable way to force people to stop maddoging the ET then I for one would like to implement it. As it stands now I know of no reliable way. So then, I am forced to maddog ETs because everyone else can. As a side note, the Su-27/33 sure would be at a disadvantage in Lock On against other fighters with out a medium range fire and forget missile.

[Frostie]

As a side note, the Su-27/33 sure would be at a disadvantage in Lock On against other fighters with out a medium range fire and forget missile.

While I totally agree with the override ET being a cheap kill this statement above just throws the ball in the MiG and F-15's court, because as it stands LO's 40km maddogged ARH's are just as unrealistic as ET maddog's so where you going to go with that? Just ignore it probably.

 

This is one of the reasons why i am a member of a squad , and all mates of this squad don´t use HL. We create our own campaigns and missions to fight between us, using "adecuate " tactics the more realistic, the better.

 

HL is pure fun but only fun, i went tired very fast. If you want something else, more real, more challenging, a squad is the best choice. Tons of fun, nice missions, real human pilots with his pros and cons and real FRIENDS that never cheats.

 

Only triying to do the best to shoot you down. Is another world.

 

This is the best post in this thread IMO.

 

All the complainers should take a big look at this post and realise what HL is, its a place which keeps LOMAC alive, mostly vacated by GAMERS who look for kills and nothing else. If you are getting killed unfairly and cheaply don't get angry and whine about it all over the server. Make yourself a better vpilot and work with friends to take these guys out, when flying realistically its not all about how many you kill... or is it?

 

This whole 'i want realism' 'ET maddog lamers' etc is just a glorified excuse for getting killed. It creates paranoia with guys left, right and centre accusing one another of cheating this, maddoging that, blah effin blah im sick of it having been on the end of it sometimes myself over the last 4years, sometimes warranted most of the time not. Guys override ET's, maddog 77's,120's, do the jammer thing, magic barrel roll, dump shed loads of chaff, printscreen if that even works, but guess what people also Notch you, drop CM's, use TWS well, use EOS effectively, just pull on the stick in a panic and avoid that missile, missiles go dead, level of heat source affects IR's, your RWR has blind spots, lag happens etc.

do the community a favour, better yourself to beat the lamers, if you die, so what at least when you beat them you know you've done it the right way.

 

But don't cry out lamer,cheater whatever just because you died when something didn't appear right to you.

[104th_Crunch]

Well said Frostie.

[MoGas]

I'am not getting so angry about a maddoged ET or something else, I know when I have to turn away to avoid such a kill on my self anyway. But what makes me realy angry is the LOD play (thats the new way on HL), and I guess this is now the worst threat in lockon, when somebody can see you over 40k's and kills you finally with the BORE mode. :(

[Kuky]

Look, I AM a member of a squad... I don't however like flying ONLY with this group of people because what ever skill you have you need to show it, or better say, use it, in different invironment... when you always fly against same people you learn the way because of reppetitivnes. When you fly online against new people to me it actually adds to realism because in real life you don't get to kill the same guy 100 times... the pilots you'd get across would always be different and of different skill... and with this comes uncertainty... which is what I like. If you don't know what you're coming up against it's more interesting and to me it is more realistic.

 

Sadly LockOn has its flaws but if we all just start using it the whole idea is flight SIM is gone... and I don't want this... do you? This is why I have to complain about when people are constantly using these cheap ways... it just isn't the honourable way... it is not what being a fighter pilot is about.

 

if I'd want to game... I'd fly HAWK... or even I'd fly LockOn with labels on and externals... and no G etc etc... is this what we should come to... I mean, why do we bother talking how we are flight simmers when more and more I see people going the wrong path... if you want to call yourself a simmer then act like it... I am just sad I don't get to fly online any more against people who don't resourt to these cheap shots and what not else... sure not all do it but as long as I guy does it, someone else will wanna know how or what he does.. the word spreads and before you know it we are all super humans with telepatic abilities... why do we need radars etc.. why do we even need to anything propper when taking the cheat lane works better?

 

And you know, instead of talking to guys like myself to suck it up you would do yourself a favour by suporting guys like myself... if you want the same thing as I do.. because telling me to outsmart them in their game means I need to join them... and telling me to not complain and just take it sounds to me you are already accepting it and worse... maybe even doing some of the things they do yourself... that is not in my ineterst and if you want a SIM it is not in your interest either.

 

I like a FEEL of being in a jet... real people don't see little aircraft at 40km... they don't see anything at night... they don't fly with radar off and know who's where and what they are doing... they don't have 20x ZOOM in their eyes so they can zoom in at aircraft 20Km in fron of them and see what they are doing... they don't have PC monitors on which they can see other aircraft (or I don't know what else that can be done with them as I don't use it)... real pilots don't jink like crazy when they fly because they feel G's and it's nt easy flying like a fly buzzing left, right and centre... real pilots watch they don't kill friendlies... they don't just maddog every time... do I need to go on?

Edited April 8, 2009 by Kuky

[Frostie]

We all know what real pilots do and don't do, we also know what goes on in Lockon but some people like to shout their mouths off at everyone that kills them because of this constant obsession of cheaters and lame tactics ie. maddogs. Its very apparent to me that these claims and outbursts are just as irritating to most who receive it or witness it, as they are fueled by misguided un-necessary foul mouthed temper a lot of the time. Name calling and presumptions are the order of the day and IMO its just plain childish.

 

Granted, sometimes these screamers have a point but a lot of the time they are just over obsessed with exploits and cheats that never took place and seem to lack the knowledge of how the sim works.

 

I can't back people who get riled and angry by even the little things and quirks that happen in the game like a simple IR dodge from the bandit by the use of flares and maneuveur while they are doing the same but end up dieing, when it works in their favour they're fine with it but when it doesn't give it a few seconds then the thunder comes. Its so fricking childish.

[borchi_2b]

@kuky:

to the distance and the visual arena. i really start to laugh my ass off, cause here are so many real fighter pilots who know what it is like to fight bvr or dogfights in a real jet?

to the visual arena. in reality, you would not be able to see a f15 or su27 at 30km. but this is what you can do in lockon. try to get a mig29 in real life visual at 8km like in lockon. lol, you will not, esspecially when the mig or also the f16 come in nose to nose. 3 km is the visual arena there. so what do you guys want to state. as far the maddoging possibilities of the ARH are there in this game, and they are real, like the maddoging of an 27et, then i think nobody should complain about the fact that it is possible in the simulation.

 

@gg tharos:what makes you think that you are more crediable then i am ?

i only see you post against everybody who is not 100% with you.

is it a lack of knowledge that you have or a certain felling you have, that you are the only one who is right and the others are wrong.

 

have you ever read janes reports on missile performances?

things that are calculated and tested for real. not just a word from you, like, "you are talking nonsence and it is bullshit".

 

ceriously, i do not want to attack you, but there are reasons why the russians used the same missile body and motor for the 27et like they used for the 27er.

just think about the first fact. if a missile is not capaable of flying such distance, cause the seaker would not be able to detect something, do to the fact, that it burns through in a flighttime of less then 60 sec, why should they put up that much more weight to the plane?

they could have used a diffrent airframe with ess weight etc etc.

 

sometimes when i see people post about the 27et, and the capabilities of maddoging it, i really start to think about them as idiots who got killed by an 27et too often, and have no idea of evading it. i seriously bet, if we, the su27 and mig29 pilots from the community, would kill our bandits, all the time within the limits of the weaponscomputer, people would start to say again, it is way to powerfull, it cannot be realistic that the ET can hit at that distance.

but believe me, i have seen way more unrealistic things from the ARH missiles in lomac, then the facts that are discussed about maddoging an ET or not.

just watch them and then raise your vouces again and i bust your asses.

 

the first one, the magic r77:

 

and do not tell me that an ARH can do that in real life.

IT CAN NOT DO SUCH MANOUVERS !!!!!!

 

2nd video.

 

so please can we get back to the topic and discuss possibilities of knowing when and if my 27er missed

 

@frostie:

i am 100% with you. you hit it at the point

Edited April 9, 2009 by borchi_2b

[Frostie]

ceriously, i do not want to attack you, but there are reasons why the russians used the same missile body and motor for the 27et like they used for the 27er.

just think about the first fact. if a missile is not capaable of flying such distance, cause the seaker would not be able to detect something, do to the fact, that it burns through in a flighttime of less then 60 sec, why should they put up that much more weight to the plane?

they could have used a diffrent airframe with ess weight etc etc.

Maybe because the ET will always be used in a chase scenario where the extra distance is much needed over an R-73, which is used for merges.

[GGTharos]

It's great that you read a lot of Jane's.

[borchi_2b]

well frostie, that might be, or lets say it in these words. yes it is used for such chase situations-> !!!!MAYBE!!!!!, but still then the seeker would search for a long time, and the burntime, when the seeker would overheat is way longer then the time a chase is done by a missile.

and to be honest, how often in real will you end up in a chase senario. never cause the wingys will take care of the chaser and perform a delouse manouver. for sure the 27et is not made for a chase scenario, reason, this is not realistic in terms of combat with non simulated planes.

 

 

i would suggest some of the guys here to research some more and look for the right datas from good resources. just one example is janes.

 

@ggTharos: it is not just janes. it is also from diffrent sources that the germans have.

maybe you remeber, but once germany was devided into 2. stilll from that time on, we have good relations to both former cold war sides, also our military. therefor we sometimes have better intel on things then the U.S. does, but that is out of the question

Edited April 9, 2009 by borchi_2b