AIM-54-isms DCS OpenBeta 2.5.6.57949

[BreaKKer]

Bug: AIM-54 tracking chaff at the most odd time along with reacquisition weirdness. Potentially may be from Pilot+RIO desync. TWS track not showing phoenix active queue(Blinking TTI)

 

Can I reproduce it 100%: yes

 

How to reproduce/ description:

 

Step1: Get in a 2-crewed F-14 on a DCS multiplayer server.

 

Step2: Fire any phoenix variant in TWS on any number of bandits.

 

Step 3: Let the phoenix go active. The harder the notching/maneuvering target, the better.

 

Result: Phoenix goes stupid within active range. Possibly incorrect notch value numbers in missile API.

Result 2: Phoenix does not reacquire, even though bandit turns hot back into phoenix seeker limits. Possibly the phoenix "tunnel visioning" on the single bundle of chaff while there is a huge MiG coming right in the radar seeker.

Result 3: TWS track not showing active queue passed 16 TTI. Possibly the phoenix going active before 16 TTI and not indicating that it did

 

DCS Version: OpenBeta 2.5.6.57949

 

Track:

From my Pilot. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/465974839862362113/778709516853575731/CSG-2_Georgian_Coast_v11.16-20201118-194823.trk

From me(RIO): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/323140031441272833/778713039133605908/CSG-2_Georgian_Coast_v11.16-20201118-125101.trk

 

Tacview files:

From my Pilot: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/465974839862362113/778714118449397760/Tacview-20201118-194853-DCS-CSG-2_Georgian_Coast_v11.16.zip.acmi

From me(RIO): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/323140031441272833/778714562303885322/Tacview-20201118-125116-DCS-CSG-2_Georgian_Coast_v11.16.zip.acmi

 

Video/ Screenshots: Both from my tacview. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/435484399778136114/778707651571220500/2020-11-18_13-41-01.mov

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/435484399778136114/778707656491139113/2020-11-18_13-43-06.mov

 

Mods: I do not use any mods.

 

Other users on the Tomcat Alley discord server are saying they are seeing somewhat similar results.

 

Similar bug to what was seen in the past few patches. I reported something similar in the past.

[dundun92]

Result 2: Phoenix does not reacquire, even though bandit turns hot back into phoenix seeker limits. Possibly the phoenix "tunnel visioning" on the single bundle of chaff while there is a huge MiG coming right in the radar seeker.

 

This part is definitely on EDs side, the AMRAAM has the exact same bug. I reported it a while back but no response.

[BreaKKer]

 

This part is definitely on EDs side, the AMRAAM has the exact same bug. I reported it a while back but no response.

 

Really? I didn't know that was a thing with the AIM-120

[dundun92]

 

Really? I didn't know that was a thing with the AIM-120

 

Yep here's the thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/english/digital-combat-simulator/dcs-world-2-5/bugs-and-problems-ai/weapon-issues/289734-amraam-chaff-bug

If makes notching the AMRAAM ridiculously easy as simply dropping about 2-3 chaff while in the notch gate stops the missile reacquiring, as it is stuck on a chaff bundle with no radial velocity/doppler shift :music_whistling:

[fat creason]

Remember, nearly all aspects of missile guidance we have zero control over. Best to report to ED. Up until the last patch the AIM-54 was a giant AIM-120 because that's all we could do via the API.

[BreaKKer]

I put the post over on the ED side of the forums

AIM-54-isms DCS OpenBeta 2.5.6.57949 - ED Forums

[Harlikwin]

Remember, nearly all aspects of missile guidance we have zero control over. Best to report to ED. Up until the last patch the AIM-54 was a giant AIM-120 because that's all we could do via the API.

 

So I gotta ask a bit of clarification on this.

 

What parts of missile modeling do you guys (i.e. 3rd parties) do vs ED. Given the recent SD-10 fiasco, which is eerily similar, my understanding was that ED said they would do the modeling. But then subsequent posts suggest that the 3rd parties are back on the hook to do the modeling. Can you clarify how this works? Like do you provide ED with docs and they do some part, or they provide you with the API and you guys do it or what? I assume there is some back and forth on it but from an outsiders perspective its pretty unclear.

[Naquaii]

 

So I gotta ask a bit of clarification on this.

 

What parts of missile modeling do you guys (i.e. 3rd parties) do vs ED. Given the recent SD-10 fiasco, which is eerily similar, my understanding was that ED said they would do the modeling. But then subsequent posts suggest that the 3rd parties are back on the hook to do the modeling. Can you clarify how this works? Like do you provide ED with docs and they do some part, or they provide you with the API and you guys do it or what? I assume there is some back and forth on it but from an outsiders perspective its pretty unclear.

 

We can more or less only set values for chaff resistance in regards to seeker performance. That's what we've been trying to set but how that is set has changed a couple of times which has had us chasing that around.

Other than that the API changes we asked for allows us to control whether the missiles loft and what seeker mode the missile is in.

 

Then it's simply about if our radar tells the missile if it sees the target or not which is how it has always been.

 

That's it.

[fat creason]

I'm not the most knowledgable person about the missiles, but as I understand it, we can control things like drag and CCM values and some guidance gains, etc. More or less things that affect flight performance. There isn't a ton of documentation on how any of this is implemented in-game and ED has been changing things recently, requiring us to play catch-up. Anything related to tracking and the actual guidance logic itself (180 deg turns, "magic" INS, other weird issues) we have no control over.

[Vatikus]

In testings we did, we have found out phoneix goes dumb in TWS before going active as soon as track enters memory mode... so when missile goes pitbull (TTI 16), even if target is in missile FOV it will not acquire the target.

 

 

[Noctrach]

In testings we did, we have found out phoneix goes dumb in TWS before going active as soon as track enters memory mode... so when missile goes pitbull (TTI 16), even if target is in missile FOV it will not acquire the target.

 

 

Yup, our testing confirmed the same. If a false track is created during missile flight, the missile stops guiding altogether and just goes stupid.

This happens a lot. Head-on target, over sea, 3+ degrees lookup, light crank or some chaff et voilá, false track and consequently a lost missile.

 

Most of the time this false track is flying side-by-side with the real contact, so the missile seeker should still be pointing at the right piece of sky when going active.

I'm led to believe it never goes active, considering TTI 16 currently flashes when the missile goes active in game, which doesn't happen on these shots.

AWG-9 will also be stuck in TWS until manually forced into another mode since the missile never times out.

 

Phoenixes fired in TWS also don't give RWR warnings. Do we know if they actually go active at all or if they just home using DCS INS shenanigans?

 

Beyond that they seem to be working fine.

[Sonoda Umi]

In testings we did, we have found out phoneix goes dumb in TWS before going active as soon as track enters memory mode... so when missile goes pitbull (TTI 16), even if target is in missile FOV it will not acquire the target.

 

 

Same test results have been existing nearly one year.

[dundun92]

Phoenixes fired in TWS also don't give RWR warnings. Do we know if they actually go active at all or if they just home using DCS INS shenanigans?

 

Pretty sure its more INS wonkyness causing that yes

[P0G0]