G limits and Dogfighting

[mwlue]

Plus some random F or D words in it would be even better...   lack of F/D words in the heat of a dogfight is very discouraging! 

[Spurts]

On 12/12/2020 at 3:36 AM, Uxi said:

 

Something about us messing up his spine, too. 

I get one on... firm.... landings.  "Oh man, my chiropractor is going to love you"

[Sandman1330]

The Jester comment is a great idea!

 

My favorite is when you buzz the tower on the boat while supersonic... I don't remember the exact wording but something about how the Airboss is going to be peeved!

[captain_dalan]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:25 AM, Southernbear said:

Oh I must know where to find this video, theres been so many F-14 interviews over the last year that I don't even know where to start. 

Sorry, i can't reveal that. Name-dropping is frowned upon on public forums. Suffice to say, he did not get the answer he was expecting.

[GGTharos]

5 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

Sorry, i can't reveal that. Name-dropping is frowned upon on public forums. Suffice to say, he did not get the answer he was expecting.

 

Also suffice it to say, real data posted here seems to completely contradict the implied frequency with which 8g was exceeded.

[captain_dalan]

23 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

Also suffice it to say, real data posted here seems to completely contradict the implied frequency with which 8g was exceeded.

I wouldn't be all that surprised to be honest. When i analyze my own tracks (BFM) i find that yes, on occasion i go up 9, heck, very seldom even up to 10. But by far (about 75% of all my BFM tracks) spike at about 6. And no wonder really, it's where the jet performs the best. Add to that that most of the flight hours aren't spent on jinks and hard breaks, or even BFM, and i don't think we have a reason to believe that operationally every flight was spent in the 8g area.

DCS however isn't RL. Unless deliberately restricting yourself to around the boat drills, free flights and AAR, most likely your every flight will end in a furball.

[Uxi]

55 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

I wouldn't be all that surprised to be honest. When i analyze my own tracks (BFM) i find that yes, on occasion i go up 9, heck, very seldom even up to 10. But by far (about 75% of all my BFM tracks) spike at about 6. And no wonder really, it's where the jet performs the best. Add to that that most of the flight hours aren't spent on jinks and hard breaks, or even BFM, and i don't think we have a reason to believe that operationally every flight was spent in the 8g area.

DCS however isn't RL. Unless deliberately restricting yourself to around the boat drills, free flights and AAR, most likely your every flight will end in a furball.

 

 

Right.  As Shoes Mullen said, he thinks the plane could routinely do 9G but it wouldn't do it for long since they'd bleed energy so fast pulling that many G's (as would every plane).  There's no way for the game to really emulate the budgetary, or even frankly, survivability concerns.  No way to force people to do frame inspections or paperwork and the plane COULD do it.  The simulator only needs to make sure the wings get ripped off or the engines get ripped out at certain limits or other things (to include the pilot) get broken at certain limits and that appears to be quite accurately modeled.  We also know the rest of DCS is not up to this standard, particularly the FC3 planes, so have no compunction going beyond peacetime limits imposed for budgetary and ultimately political considerations.  

[Sideburns]

11 minutes ago, Uxi said:

 We also know the rest of DCS is not up to this standard, particularly the FC3 planes, so have no compunction going beyond peacetime limits imposed for budgetary and ultimately political considerations.  

 

A real issue for competitions, FC3 planes can be incredibly strong compared to their full fidelity counterparts and sometimes the 3rd party modules can be wonky (looking at you MiG21). I hope as part of the enhanced damage modelling there is a universal balancing of all ED and 3rd party planes.

[GGTharos]

Why is it a real issue?  If you're good at BFM the spikes those aircraft (we're talking about the F-15, really) can generate shouldn't be a huge issue.  It's not like they're being flown at heavy weights where you couldn't pull that much g and hope to keep it in one piece - not to mention they've been spiked to those g's IRL, and any long-term maintenance of such g is constrained by gloc.

 

I mean yes, fix them but man is the whole 'they have an advantage' thing exaggerated like crazy.

[henshao]

To play the devil's advocate a little though, as a primarily F-15 pilot I can admit that the Turkey and the Tennis Court are soooooo equally matched in energy-maneuverability that the ability to pull an insane initial 12g+ initial turn from 600 knots at the merge gets you so far ahead in the first circle that it is a clear advantage...if you take advantage of it. I think the real issue is that DCS models factory-fresh aircraft which, sure both the tomcat and the eagle with 0 hours on them could spike a gajillion G's and probably not be worse for it. But what if DCS modeled very tired birds instead, or had the option to, planes near the end of their lifespans instead? Ones that would definitely break if you yanked them too hard. I don't know what the solution would be, perhaps a slider in the mission editor, under the loadouts section, "plane weariness"

[Uxi]

That's an interesting idea.  Aged aircraft would probably be most easily linked with increased probably of systems failure mechanism (perhaps reworked).   Never really going to have maintenance down birds, though or missing/limited parts or any of the tedious Real World logistics issues any more than we have limits on ammunition, missiles, or fuel.   

Edited December 20, 2020 by Uxi

[captain_dalan]

If memory serves, HB does simulate an initial fatigue state, and not all birds start with the same fatigue hours available at every mission start. That is why your ride will start breaking at different over-g excursions in different missions.

But yeah, that's HB and the F-14. I don't think other devs do this. And yeah, having a server-mission design side capability to control air frame fatigue (as well as maintenance hours) would be awesome. Especially if campaign designers could use it in a way to make sure same plane transfers its fatigue from one mission to the next!

That's on ED though....

[Uxi]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

If memory serves, HB does simulate an initial fatigue state, and not all birds start with the same fatigue hours available at every mission start. That is why your ride will start breaking at different over-g excursions in different missions.

 

Do they?  We should have the option or chance of getting a fresh bird, too then?  Would be nice to have that control in the mission editor.

 

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, henshao said:

To play the devil's advocate a little though, as a primarily F-15 pilot I can admit that the Turkey and the Tennis Court are soooooo equally matched in energy-maneuverability that the ability to pull an insane initial 12g+ initial turn from 600 knots at the merge gets you so far ahead in the first circle that it is a clear advantage...

 

All they need to do is be at 500 or 450 kts and one-circle you, they get the first shot ... keeping 12g for 4 sec and then having to ramp down gives you little.

[captain_dalan]

On 12/20/2020 at 5:25 AM, Uxi said:

 

Do they?  We should have the option or chance of getting a fresh bird, too then?  Would be nice to have that control in the mission editor.

 

Well, the bird we get can still safely push 9g for the most part. It's just that excursions above that can have random results. Sometimes nothing will break at 11g, and other times your gyro will go berserk at 9.5 after just half a second (i paraphrase of course)