DCS: F-15C

[Silver_Dragon]

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

No, it's not. The point is to recreate capability of the simulated aircraft, not its history. You can take your IDS and fly against fighters if you wish so. If you want to forbid it then you're against all DCS missions and campaigns cause they are all fictional.

Yes, that is the point, by someone like convert the "unusual" on commom. Await the next.

[draconus]

17 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

someone like convert the "unusual" on commom

No one said it's common.

[Nahen]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

 This is no fantasy, this is a real scenario that was planned for and trained for. 

 

Nonsense, nothing any training...

Find a pilot flying the F-15A/C and ask him if he was regulary trained in bombing on this type of aircraft, whether in the entire regulary process of training on this type of aircraft at least one hour was devoted to practical bombing training, or whether he participated in "tests/trying" bombing.

I wonder what he'll tell you...

Edited January 23, 2023 by Nahen

[Dragon1-1]

7 minutes ago, Nahen said:

I wonder what he'll tell you...

If he was from 1st TFW specifically, he'd tell me they did it, because they did. Again, quoting the article:

Quote

[...]currently only the F-15Cs of the 1st TFW (Langley, Va) actually practice strike sorties.

Of course, not being from the US, nevermind from Langley, I have little chance of meeting a 1st TFW Eagle driver from the 80s. It's not like I can just go into a bar and look for an old guy with aviator sunglasses and a 1st TFW patch on his leather jacket. Not many of those in the EU. That said, I have reasons to believe the author of that article knows what he's talking about (if you don't, just google his name).

How many old Eagle drivers from the 1st TFW have you asked about this?

[Silver_Dragon]

That discusion was aswered by mvsgas, a real usaf technical some years ago about the "real capabilites" on USAF aircrafts... about the same topic...

 

[Nahen]

16 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

How many old Eagle drivers from the 1st TFW have you asked about this?

Look for the quote I posted earlier - it talks about "testing" and "data collection" at Kadena AFB, not training. Words confirming such information in the nineties I heard a lot from F-15C pilots. They were never trained in bombing, few of them took part in bombing tests and trials in the 1980s without any training - they just "on the go" took part in dropping bombs on specific training grounds in order to collect information and data. Each of them claimed that it was most likely connected to work on the F-15E. I spoke to at least 10 pilots of the 493rd Squadron, 48th Fighter Wing from Lakenheath when they were at the 28th PLM base near Słupsk. None of them had ever practiced dropping bombs from an F-15C, and none of them knew of any cases other than the aforementioned tests and trials at Kadena AFB and a few other locations.

[draconus]

37 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

That discusion was aswered by mvsgas, a real usaf technical some years ago about the "real capabilites" on USAF aircrafts...

He specifically said he doesn't know and nowhere he denied the capability.

[Dragon1-1]

54 minutes ago, Nahen said:

I spoke to at least 10 pilots of the 493rd Squadron, 48th Fighter Wing from Lakenheath when they were at the 28th PLM base near Słupsk. 

Was any of them involved in RDF/JRDTF project at Langley (I know 48th as a wing wasn't)? This was the main reason why the 1st practiced air to ground, the other Eaglejet wing in that initiative (the 49th FW) was stuck on the A model at the time and later transitioned to Nighthawks. Interestingly, FAST packs (C model CFTs) are also mentioned of being part of that mission, despite not being seen on the C very often. Looks like the RDF people basically figured how to make a Strike Eagle before the E model was a thing.

If nothing else, we know for certain, from multiple sources, that the capacity is there. If the 48th FW pilots could drop bombs at Kadena without any modifications to the jet, then we should be able to do that, too. I think an FF F-15C would also do well to include the FAST packs, too. 

[Exorcet]

11 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I think an FF F-15C would also do well to include the FAST packs, too. 

Agreed. It should be easier than it is for the E with Razbam as they had to do all the FM work from nothing. ED has a FM for the C without CFT's, working on a FF Eagle might leave them enough time to do a CFT based flight model.

I also wouldn't mind seeing some of the proposed FAST packs beyond extra fuel for what if scenarios.

[Nahen]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Was any of them involved in RDF/JRDTF project at Langley (I know 48th as a wing wasn't)? This was the main reason why the 1st practiced air to ground, the other Eaglejet wing in that initiative (the 49th FW) was stuck on the A model at the time and later transitioned to Nighthawks. Interestingly, FAST packs (C model CFTs) are also mentioned of being part of that mission, despite not being seen on the C very often. Looks like the RDF people basically figured how to make a Strike Eagle before the E model was a thing.

If nothing else, we know for certain, from multiple sources, that the capacity is there. If the 48th FW pilots could drop bombs at Kadena without any modifications to the jet, then we should be able to do that, too. I think an FF F-15C would also do well to include the FAST packs, too. 

Damn... the F-15C... and the F-15A... yes, the F-15C retained bomb-dropping capability. But he never did... All tests, trials and as you say only a very limited group of pilots/version and version A planes were involved in such "tests"? Not a F-15C...

[Dragon1-1]

26 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Damn... the F-15C... and the F-15A... yes, the F-15C retained bomb-dropping capability. But he never did... All tests, trials and as you say only a very limited group of pilots/version and version A planes were involved in such "tests"? Not a F-15C...

Did you actually read the article I linked? The F-15A was used for bombing in tests. That is to say, not in operational squadrons. The 49th TFW, when part of RDJTF, had F-15As. They had bombing avionics, CCIP and Auto bombing modes, but were explicitly not used for the task. In fact, they were outdated at the time. The 1st TFW had F-15Cs, and had a multirole tasking within the RDJTF. The F-15A and B were used as demonstrators for the Strike Eagle concept, but nothing more than that.

The F-15C's bombing capability was used in training, and would have possibly been used operationally had RDJTF actually deployed the way it was at the time. What's more, the F-15C improved on the F-15A's ground attack capability.

Quote

Though the F-15A/B had the software and electronics for bombing (e.g. CCIP or Automatic Release) it is not used for the task. The C/D has a Doppler beam sharpened groundmapping ability, ground Moving Target Indicator (MTI) and fixed target tracking, all of which are tactical strike modes.

Note the present tense, the article was written in 1983, when this was current. The air to ground radar modes on the F-15C are comparable to what we have (or should have) on the F-16, with DBS, MTT and FTT modes. They wouldn't have bothered with them had they not intended them for air to ground use at some point. This was indeed what the 1st TFW was to do, and to that end, they were also equipped with CFTs, making their Cs and Ds kind of proto-Mudhens. As far as I'm aware, this usage was limited strictly to RDJTF.

I'm not sure what changed when RDJTF turned into CENTCOM, but the article indicates the state of affairs continued into the 1983 at least. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept doing it the way they did it in RDJTF until the Mudhen came along. Either way, it's something that was done a small, but important fraction of Eaglejet pilots. Notso pretty much indicated the same thing. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[Nahen]

5 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

. As far as I'm aware, this usage was limited strictly to RDJTF, but as it happens, this very task force would have been sent to Middle East had the Soviets intervened in Yom Kippur War. Looks like a campaign scenario to me, if we only had appropriate maps.

But are you sure about what you write?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Nahen

[Dragon1-1]

Duh, meant to delete that part before posting. Funny that you chose to address the obvious historical goof that has nothing to do with the Eaglejet, though. That's why I deleted it.

The RDJTF came about as a result of the Yom Kippur War standoff with the Soviets, and the later on the Carter Doctrine. It would have gone into ME if there had been a Soviet intervention, to protect US interests (oil supply) in that area. Given the region's penchant for blowing up, this is a good alternate history campaign setting if you want the 80s (and I know I do, that's an interesting time for air combat), but ultimately, this brings little to the discussion of the aircraft's capabilities.

Because either way, doctrine specifics don't matter. What matters is aircraft capabilities. F-15A had limited air to ground capabilities, the F-15C had capabilities similar to a Block 30 F-16 without a TGP, but with greater bombload. An FF F-15C module has to include those, since they were part of a real aircraft.

[blkspade]

On 12/23/2022 at 1:20 AM, Exorcet said:

To each their own. I'd much rather deal with the air units that actually do things rather than completely static ground units. In my opinion until SAM's at the very least do more than sit around with their radar on forever waiting to die, they'll never be as interesting as fighting DCS's air AI.

Yeah I'm personally on the "not a pound" train myself. I don't care for it in general, which is made worse by the fish in a barrel thing. They can technically be allowed to move, but its just another thing typically broken in multiplayer. You have to basically be putting the airframe in an unrealistic level of danger for it to be fun or challenging hitting stationary targets. I would occasionally fly the A-10 just to move the server along, because you could do the most work with an A-10. Then the challenge was mostly dealing with the poor flir implementation.

[Dragon1-1]

That's just a problem with DCS itself, and with bugs in multiplayer. Besides, on a coop mission you can have units moving and reacting to fire. In SP or small scale MP, air to ground missions can be very fun and challenging. Particularly since in the Eagle, you'd have no TGP and the only sensors for the task would be your eyeballs and the radar. Sure, probably not as difficult or challenging as it could be, but I hope that given how much press the Apache is getting, ground units AI will be looked at, too. It will need to happen if DC is to be a thing.

[Superbug Echo]

All dressed up for the DCS "Big Deal" full-fidelity ball...but not invited.

[SilentSparrow]

On 2/11/2023 at 9:36 PM, Superbug Echo said:

All dressed up for the DCS "Big Deal" full-fidelity ball...but not invited.

F-15C with JHMCS, Link 16, and possibly with APG-63(v)2 would be a dream module for many. I'd love it even as an FC3-style jet. Hope ED makes it, it would change DCS!

Edited February 15, 2023 by SilentSparrow

[Exorcet]

On 2/14/2023 at 10:59 PM, SilentSparrow said:

F-15C with JHMCS, Link 16, and possibly with APG-63(v)2 would be a dream module for many. I'd love it even as an FC3-style jet. Hope ED makes it, it would change DCS!

 

Supposedly FC won't see any more development, so a FF module is the only hope. I don't mind that though, the Eagle is too good to be limited to a FC level simulation in my opinion. Over 10 years that we've had the PFM and modeled switches in the cockpit, but still no avionics to go with them.

[SilentSparrow]

22 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Supposedly FC won't see any more development, so a FF module is the only hope. I don't mind that though, the Eagle is too good to be limited to a FC level simulation in my opinion. Over 10 years that we've had the PFM and modeled switches in the cockpit, but still no avionics to go with them.

I mean, I would absolutely love the F-15C full fidelity (JHMCS, Link 16, APG-63(v)2) but it has to be coded in a similar style of the FC3-style planes. This is because I want mods to be available to be made off of the back of the F-15C full fidelity.

[SuperKermit]

Am 15.2.2023 um 04:59 schrieb SilentSparrow:

F-15C with JHMCS, Link 16, and possibly with APG-63(v)2 would be a dream module for many. I'd love it even as an FC3-style jet. Hope ED makes it, it would change DCS!

I would much rather like to see an F-15A or early F-15C before the MSIP-II-upgrade!

That would be the ideal plane for Cold War scenarios vs. the projected MiG-29 9-12. No need for another SPAMRAAM missile truck - the F-15E will fill that role good enough!

Edited February 18, 2023 by ChrisKermit

[Exorcet]

8 hours ago, ChrisKermit said:

No need for another SPAMRAAM missile truck - the F-15E will fill that role good enough!

 

By that logic, just use the F-4 or F-14. The AMRAAM era lacks a true air superiority fighter, and as capable as the E is, it's still a bomb truck.

The good news is that we could probably get early and late Eagles together since the airframe and cockpit didn't change that much with time.

[draconus]

15 hours ago, ChrisKermit said:

No need for another SPAMRAAM missile truck

You might want to read the thread title again.

[bies]

15 hours ago, ChrisKermit said:

I would much rather like to see an F-15A or early F-15C before the MSIP-II-upgrade!

That would be the ideal plane for Cold War scenarios vs. the projected MiG-29 9-12. No need for another SPAMRAAM missile truck - the F-15E will fill that role good enough!

Agree, during 1970s/1980s F-15 was in its prime and nearly all of 104 F-15 air kills achieved in 1975-1991 Cold War era with Sparrows/Sidewinders/Gun, before AMRAAM.

In 2000s F-15 modernisation has been neglected as USAF pushed all the money to save F-22 program. F-15 became cheap old substitute of the Raptor when Congress didn't allow to replace all 700 Eagles with Raptors in mid 2000s, but only 190 high tech F-22. Still neither F-22 nor F-15 was needed, when USSR collapsed there was no air threat anymore in the world and both fighters didn't have opportunities to fight and shoot down enemy aircrafts.

 

BTW: MSIP came online early on, still during Cold War, since 1985 MSIP was becoming standard in USAF squadrons in Europe - exactly when first Su-27P/S started to appear in Soviet squadrons in 1985. That's why all F-15C in Gulf War 1991 were MSIP standard (electronic display for weapon control, NCTR, internal ECM, some new radar functions etc.)

I think 2 variants would be ideal, 1975 F-15A, with all 1970s DCS F-5E, MiG-21bis, Mirage F.1, F-14A, F-4E etc.

And 1985 F-15C MSIP for late Cold War/Gulf War, with Su-27S, MiG-29A,  F-14B, Su-25A, Su-17M, Mi-24 etc. It was used in 1990s as well with AMRAAM.

The more variants the better, since 1979 it was just adding electronic devices to F-15C airframe so it wouldn't be time consuming.

[Exorcet]

13 hours ago, bies said:

I think 2 variants would be ideal, 1975 F-15A, with all 1970s DCS F-5E, MiG-21bis, Mirage F.1, F-14A, F-4E etc.

And 1985 F-15C MSIP for late Cold War/Gulf War, with Su-27S, MiG-29A,  F-14B, Su-25A, Su-17M, Mi-24 etc. It was used in 1990s as well with AMRAAM.

With mid/late 2000's teen fighters already in DCS, we really should have an Eagle from a similar time frame. Having the entire teen series covered in full detail would be really nice for cooperative online situations.

A Gulf War specific F-15 would also be really nice to have, but we don't actually have the map for it yet. We could perhaps just make do with a pre MSIP C to cover the 70's-80's.

Or of course, take the best answer and just more variants. If most of the differences between 2005ish and late 80's/early 90's is omission of Link 16, 9X, and helmet, it might be feasible.

[bies]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:36 AM, Exorcet said:

With mid/late 2000's teen fighters already in DCS, we really should have an Eagle from a similar time frame. Having the entire teen series covered in full detail would be really nice for cooperative online situations.

We have F-16C, F/A-18C, F-15E from mid 2000s, but no opposition. F-16C, F-15E and F/A-18C suffer less since then can forget about A-A and just perform A-G.

Contrary, 2000s F-15C, pure A-A platform, without any 2000s opposition in the air, wouldn't have anything to do. At most fight 1985 Su-27S. Or completely fictional and stupid to be honest USAF vs. US Navy scenarios.

At the same time Cold War F-15 fighter variant from mid 1970s F-15A or mid 1980s F-15C MSIP II  would have plenty of period correct opposition and real air wars to recreate, Bekaa Valley battle, Desert Storm etc.

Edited June 25, 2023 by bies