Free Falcon 5.0

[RedTiger]

Sorry to correct you there but Falcon 4:AF was released in 2005. For the year it was released it sure asks itself why the graphics and gameplay isnt better and updated though. If they would have put the thing on a DVD, they may have had a lot more space to mess with and improve greatly. That is what sets Falcon 4 and LOMAC in different ways as for they are both on a single CD....F4AF is the greatest most realistic sim with the most accurate weapons and avionics systems, LOMAC on the other hand is barely close to the advanced standard of Falcons weapons and avionics but the total advantage is the graphics level and multiplayer netcode. So both games have their own advantages that the other doesn't have.

 

LOMAC was originally 1.0, which looked like crap, then here came Flaming Cliffs which improved everything, and then the FC patches came around so "Adding another layer of paint" technically doesn't apply to Just Falcon 4 but rather every game that has had updates. Heck, your Operating system recieves a new coat every month. :D

 

Sorry to correct YOU but Falcon 4.0 was released in 1998.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_4

 

Please tell me you didn't think F4AF was a brand new sim!? F4AF is a re-release of a 10 year old sim. It has many of the improvements the community created over the years with biggest improvement being stability and streamlining. I take it you've never heard of the "patch dance" you had to go through to get Falcon 4.0 up to snuff? F4AF is a new "coat of paint" in the same way I feel OF and RV are. Its still the basic 1998 sim.

 

As for LOMAC, I'm not sure what you think FC did to improve the game graphically, because it did very little. I run BOTH 1.02 and 1.12 on my computer and the graphics without mods for all practical purposes are the same. The terrain coloration is a bit different (I actually prefer 1.02's stock terrain coloration, believe it or not. But of course, I have 1.12 modded), but otherwise they are the same.

 

As for LOMAC vs. Falcon...nuh uh...not going down that road and getting this thread closed. I've already said my peace earlier in the thread, which I will only repeat here; you can put in all the avionics you want, its still not going to fool my eyeballs into thinking the game isn't dated. Maybe if I played Falcon 4.0 in its day I would feel differently. I can tell you that the first modern combat sim I played was Flanker 2.0 and yes, that sim is also dated too, but not even as much as I feel F4 is. My eyeballs fooled a bit more in that one, if you catch my drift. ;) It isn't all about graphics though, see my previous posts. But since Acedy corrected me on some of that, I'll just stick with graphics for now. ;)

 

These days when I try to play F4AF, I'll jump into the DC but it feels like I have to force myself to play. I can, however, plop down a single plane in LOMAC's ME and just fly around for the sake of flying for hours with no trouble at all. You'd think that MSFS would be good for me, but I'm waiting for the completion of this:

 

http://www.vrsimulations.com/product_FA18E.htm :thumbup:

 

No thanks, I don't want to simulate the job of an airline pilot. Can I order a Superbug?

 

You see, avionics are not a problem with me. I like the complexity of F4AF, and I'm looking forward to all the DCS modules. I kid you not, I just have a hard time maintaining interest in F4AF because it literally feels like I installed a 10 year old game on a legacy DOS/Win98 system.

 

I'll give another example. Ever heard of the Elderscrolls series? The most recent addition was Oblivion, but a few years back there was also Morrowind. I tried playing the one before that called Daggerfal. Dagger fall is a DOS game that came out in the mid nineties. In every way, shape, or form, it is more expansive and complex than Morrowind and certainly Oblivion (which was way, way TOO dumbed down, IMO). There are far more options for your character, far more skills, the game world is hundreds of miles in size. However, I could never bring myself to play it since the game play and graphics are so antiquated. Its like I have a threshold where at a certain point the graphics start to detract from the immersion. F4AF is at the borderline where its graphics detract from my immersion.

Edited June 13, 2008 by RedTiger

[RedTiger]

Ha yeah, 10th anniversary in December. :drunk:

 

Hey yeah, I won't lie that I do find it remarkable that its 10 years old. I'll even admit that its remarkable that nothing can take its place for the fans who love it, even after 10 years. Its like a preserved artifact from a better time when simming was actually kinda mainstream. I can certainly see why it was preserved for so long, even if I'm thinking its not for me. I actually did by a mint copy of the binder edition of Falcon 4.0 not too long ago, just as a collectors item AND if I ever wanted to try OF, of course.

[Bucic]

For me the worst features of Falcon 4 of any brand is flight model + JITTERING. Graphics don't look revolutionary in this preview. Clouds are far better than in LO FC though.

[Pilotasso]

3D damage modling is the worst too. Even falcon 3 was more satisfying.

[Bucic]

3D damage modling is the worst too. Even falcon 3 was more satisfying.

 

But it's less significant than poor flight model and jittering IMO given that only visualisation of the damage model is absent.

[Aeroscout]

A bit OT, but here's my take on Falcon 4 and Lock on

 

The 2 Sims fulfill the ideas of 2 different philosophies, A situational awareness/combat oriented sim, and a technical, avionics based sim. The former being lockon and the latter being Falcon. Neither is better than the other, it's simply a preference and is up to the individual do descide what he/she likes. ED, however, appears to be trying to combine these philosophies in DCS as an "ultimate" sim, which, IMO is a very good idea.

 

I got Falcon before Lockon, gave it a chance, and gave up, quickly finding lockon's more open/accessible game play more to my liking. I liked the idea of perfecting air to air combat tactics, rather than pressing every button in the cockpit. I also liked how lockon's training tutorials presented everything in a visual format, which allowed me (and other players I'm sure) to grasp the basics very quickly without flipping though a cumbersome electronic manual just to figure out how to access TWS. I prefer to be shown how to do something, not told how.

 

Both are good sims, it's just what the player prefers.

 

just my 2 cents

[159th_Viper]

For me the worst features of Falcon 4 of any brand is flight model......

 

+1

 

Essentially the reason why I followed the Install - Flight - Immediate Uninstall path.

 

Found a Documentary on the Mating Habits of a North Sea Clam to be more stimulating.........Roll On DCS: Fast-Jets :joystick:

[SUBS17]

Honestly, in my opinion is that they should let that series die. They need to let it die, mourn its passing, play the Falcon versions available now, and wait for someone like Lead-Pursuit to make the next version from a new engine. How much longer are they going to prop up that tired old sim? Yes, it looks nice, but I take one look at that terrain and its clear that its just more make up slathered on an old face.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Falcon. I own it and play it from time to time. I'm just tired of seeing it window-dressed ad nauseum and simultaneously hailed by the fanboys as some sort of religious experience that is superior to all else. All the while, we have little idea how accurate any of it is beyond the F-16, since no one in the Falcon community discusses anything like that and the community doesn't seem to have any active SMEs in any community testing it like ED has for DCS. Outside of the Viper's canopy, it could all be just blue planes painted red. I have my suspicions that this is the case when it comes to avionics and weapon systems (in other words, MiG-29s and R-77s are just F-16Cs and Aim-120s with a different 3D model). I do know that the flight models are different.

 

I suggest you take a look at SP3,4 and OFs patches all contain lists of improvements made for the mod and most of them also contain information on specific systems that have been improved. As for avionics download the MLU tapes and compare those to OFs Dash34 and you'll see alot of effort has gone into making it as close as possible to the real deal F-16 and in fact its modeled a level well beyond anything currently modelled in Lockon. With BS in development its in the same league as OF IMO and so don't be surprised if when the DCS F16 is made there are similarities between both sims although because its next generation it'll most likely contain extra features not yet modeled in a sim. (but you'll still most likely be pushing the same buttons to drop bombs and fire missiles)

[Bucic]

I correct myself - for me THE worst thing in Falcon 4 of any brand is the infamous jittering. I can imagine flight behaviour of F-16 at least resembling that modeled (to some extent) but I cannot imagine F-16 at warp micro jumps producing 500 G.

 

BTW, similar jittering trashes the whole greatness of Battfle of Britain 2 Wings of Victory and LO multiplayer. I would change any graphics for Steel Beasts Pro PE graphics (rather poor) just to get rock solid positioning any time.

[SUBS17]

For me the worst features of Falcon 4 of any brand is flight model + JITTERING. Graphics don't look revolutionary in this preview. Clouds are far better than in LO FC though.

 

At least F4AF has dynamic weather which is something FC does not have and the FM is good in OF and AF for the F-16 it compares quite well with the HUD tapes I've seen. It might not look as flash as LOs graphics but at least from time to time I notice the weather change from one location to another. OFs fuel consumption is probably closer I think to the actual fuel consumption of an F-16 you can't use too much burner or risk running out of fuel. BTW open Falcon is no longer getting modded but there are other mods aside FF5 in development for F4.:thumbup:

[SUBS17]

I correct myself - for me THE worst thing in Falcon 4 of any brand is the infamous jittering. I can imagine flight behaviour of F-16 at least resembling that modeled (to some extent) but I cannot imagine F-16 at warp micro jumps producing 500 G.

 

BTW, similar jittering trashes the whole greatness of Battfle of Britain 2 Wings of Victory and LO multiplayer. I would change any graphics for Steel Beasts Pro PE graphics (rather poor) just to get rock solid positioning any time.

 

Sounds like you need to upgrade dude.:smilewink: No jittering on my system except from lag in MP occassionally when in flight refuelling.

[Bucic]

At least F4AF has dynamic weather which is something FC does not have

I didn't know that.

 

Sounds like you need to upgrade dude.:smilewink: No jittering on my system except from lag in MP occassionally when in flight refuelling.

I don't play/fly LO anymore so I don't need to upgrade :P

I use to play LO singleplayer at 45+ FPS and I use to have pings in lower range so I don't think there's no issue. At least you can't say you don't see difference between SP and MP animation. Some of it come from potentiometer spikes which jitter some planes so hard they would exceed structural load! Disgusting :D

[SUBS17]

If your potentiometers are spiking its not the sims fault its your HOTAS sounds like you need a new one. And I've never come across that bug in F4 or lockon.

[Groove]

I thought this thread is about Free Falcon 5.0 and not pointing out what is better in Lockon than in Falcon "what ever version" and vice versa.

 

 

Please get back on topic.

[Bucic]

If your potentiometers are spiking its not the sims fault its your HOTAS sounds like you need a new one. And I've never come across that bug in F4 or lockon.

Who said it's LO's/F4's fault? I said that apart from sim issue the source of the problem can also be on joystick side. Let me state that jittering in LO MP and F4 (even SP) is uncomparable.

 

The solution would be to leave the analitical positioning for the purpose of calculations as is but to aproximate the 3D model position. IIRC guys did a similar trick with units animations in TA Spring.

 

EDIT:

That or set a deadzone around the center position, this will cure at least some of the smaller spikes.

Ok, so what points that I have a problem with joystick again? :P I observeded discussed behaviour on others' planes. I could misidentify it though - it could also be a MP issue.

So there is an issue?!? ;) j/k mate.

I don't understand so I assume you're insulting me :D

Seriously, multiplayer lag/warping is a common problem for all games................which can result in warping.

I know. I just said that sometimes F4 jittering is similat to some LO MP lags.

I thought this thread is about Free Falcon 5.0 and not pointing out what is better in Lockon than in Falcon "what ever version" and vice versa.

Please get back on topic.

I think I pointed out clearly the new release of FF5 shows no progress in key areas (IMHO) like jittering and flight model. The LO "thing" is only for comparison purpose and I leave it right now. I think I also said enough on the main topic too ;)

Edited June 15, 2008 by Bucic

[Bucic]

Well according to the preview and feedback threads over at FF forums they have been working both on multiplayer issues and FMs. They have said that the F-16s FMs will stay the same though (HFFMs) + there is no work on the underlying calculations, so I think this means more data edits. If they can get the MP working this might attract a lot of people and maybe even squadrons who are right now flying AF or OF because of their MP stability.

I know only one feature added to FM and it's "dynamic inertia" option. Other than that it have always been data edits. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hehe you should know better that it always turns out that way. ;) But if people actually "point out" something that's a progress...

Why me? :)

[Bucic]

According to the BMS 2.0 and HFFM manuals BMS 2.0 alone made the following code changes regarding FMs: enabling the Cat 1 Limiter, introduction of roll inertia (as you mentioned) and new fuel flow tables, and two engine support. As for the other .exes (SP1-3, Cobra, RV, BMS 1/3) I don't know exactly, SP3 for example introduced manual flaps for non FBW aircraft, probably an exe edit. And this is from the Dash -34, alhough only indirectly related to FMs:

This kind of changes (except inertia) are tweaking existing FM rather than changing its logic. It doesn't defeat its limits which have been pounded on long time ago (the time of the biggest FM tweaks like those from SP3). Theres not much one can do about FM anymore.

 

I don't underestimate this great work (tweaking). I think F4's FM is not THAT bad, really. Introduction of Flaming Cliffs AFM has made F4's FM criticism a lot more common :) Before that milestone it wasn't so strong.

 

After all it's the jittering that I consider as the biggest pain in F4 - not FM.

I was talking to Groove...

Sorry.

[SUBS17]

I think there has to be something done to how RVs engine thrust works as its not as good as OF or AFs engine modes particularly for formation and inflight refuelling. BTW there are some cool vids of some features getting made including JHCMs and some new ground handling effects. Pity that OF and RV aren't merged together as OFs radio and data link is very cool to use in MP.:thumbup:

[Bucic]

 

Now that's impressing!!! :shocking:

No stuttering at high AoA transitions and everything! I'm speachless!

Edit:

Add something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYtPA7os7tA and good bye LO.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Bucic

[SUBS17]

Hey SUBS, do you mean these vids?

 

 

If so are you sure this is RV, because everybody else seemed to take it for granted that it shows a secret OF/BMS version, as the title/tags of the vids say? If it's actually RV this would explain the working HUD collimation and "taxi bumping" though, as they´re already in FF4 (and it would fit Ara's kind of humour, lol).

 

EDIT: okay just saw it's not the original title of that vid... Anyway?

 

The ones I was refering to are not RV as far as I know I suspect its something for OF.

[A.S]

Mystery mystery :music_whistling:

 

 

:lol: