Option to turn OFF CHEATING AI in DCS

[alphagamer4]

Please give gamers the option to turn OFF CHEATING AI in DCS.

 

It was amusing at first to watch a Rookie-level MiG 15 out-fly and down an Ace-level F-14B in an user-created mission.

 

But after watching the Rookie-level MiG 15 defy the laws of physics and limitations of its own aircraft design to win 19 out of 20 duels with the Ace-level F-14B, it is getting ridiculous.

 

Especially for a game like DCS that prides itself on being a "study-sim" and "realistic to a degree".

 

EDIT:

Here is how I would position the DCS AI:

 

ROOKIE = Obeys laws of physics and airframe's flight model.

VETERAN = ROOKIE + ability to conduct BFM maneuvers.

ACE = ROOKIE + VETERAN + ability to conduct advanced BFM maneuvers.

 

You get the idea. Each higher level of AI skill builds upon the previous levels.

 

But to Dragon's point, the AI MUST obey the laws of physics and the airframe's flight model. Anything less is the AI cheating.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by alphagamer4

[Dragon1-1]

Actually, it's mostly the MiG-15 that's hit by this. The others don't defy physics that egregiously, but the MiG-15 flies like a magic carpet, not a plane. Try a MiG-19 instead, it's got a little higher performance than the -15 IRL, but it seems to cheat much less.

[Mars Exulte]

It isn't a ''feature'' to be turned on/off, which I would think was painfully obvious. The AI sucks, and they use simplified flight models. Combine the two anf you get weird behavior.

 

New AI is on the list, as well improved fms for AI.

[alphagamer4]

4 minutes ago, zhukov032186 said:

It isn't a ''feature'' to be turned on/off, which I would think was painfully obvious. The AI sucks, and they use simplified flight models. Combine the two anf you get weird behavior.

 

New AI is on the list, as well improved fms for AI.

 

I consider it "cheating" when the AI is allowed to use simple flight models that do NOT conform to the actual flight models which gamers must use, which I would think is painfully obvious.

 

It is no different from an AI that "cheats" when it can see all the units on a battlefield and is NOT limited to the fog of war which gamers are impacted by.

[Mars Exulte]

8 minutes ago, alphagamer4 said:

 

I consider it "cheating" when the AI is allowed to use simple flight models that do NOT conform to the actual flight models which gamers must use, which I would think is painfully obvious.

  The PFMs used by the player aircraft are not feasible to apply to each AI aircraft because

A. You'd be unable to play the game and

 

B. It's too complicated to teach an AI to handle all the complexity of it.

 

It only works in multiplayer because each person handles their own plane, if yours was responsible for all of them, your PC would vomit in your lap.

 

Quote

It is no different from an AI that "cheats" when it can see all the units on a battlefield and is NOT limited to the fog of war which gamers are impacted by.

  It is different, actually, as they're unrelated categories, although done for similar reasons of performance and simplicity.

 

 If you don't want ''AI shortcuts'' don't play against AI, because every game has them for all the same reasons.

Edited January 11, 2021 by zhukov032186

[SpecterDC13]

In case you didn't read the latest news letter they are bringing improved AI to the table this year so just have patience. No need to complain about something that they already stated is in the works. 

[alphagamer4]

 

 

Are you going to defend the broken DCS track replays next?

Edited January 11, 2021 by alphagamer4

[Glide]

I love kicking AI butt!  Try the Mig-21Bis.  I don't put those nasty fellows in my missions anymore unless I want a long gunfight.  They can out-turn the F-16 every time.

[alphagamer4]

4 minutes ago, glide said:

I love kicking AI butt!  Try the Mig-21Bis.  I don't put those nasty fellows in my missions anymore unless I want a long gunfight.  They can out-turn the F-16 every time.

 

Thanks but I'm looking for realistic AI matchups in DCS, not ones where a Rookie-level MiG-15 destroys an Ace-level F-14B.

[Glide]

You want the Su-27 and Mig-29S.  Bad boys.  Not sure how you set up your dogfights, but guns only is one option.  Short range missiles with ROE to restrict fire zones is another good one.  I like to wade into a furball with 4 Blue AI buddies against 5 or 6 Red AI's.  Your F-14 is designed for BVR engagement more than dogfighting.  I have the module myself, so I'll drop one in a mission and see if it can keep up.

[SpecterDC13]

5 hours ago, alphagamer4 said:

 

 

Are you going to defend the broken DCS track replays next?

 

 

Is there a reason you are being hostile? Because it is not called for. You are complaining about something that they (ED) have already stated in their news letter posted less than a week ago that they are working on and will probably never stop working on. Sure they have been working on it for a long time but they have also been working on a lot of other things that are more important and take priority. If you can't understand that then maybe DCS isn't for you at the moment. Which leads to your statement about me defending the replay system. No, I will not defend it, but I am not going to complain about it either because I know that they have more important things to do like fixing thousands of bug issues among other things on their plate. And quiet frankly the replay system isn't that big a deal. If you need to see what happened in the battlefield area then use Tacview which is free and you don't have to pay for it unless you want to. 

 

I see it like this you can either complain about something they already know and have yourself be Captain Obvious or you can help the community by finding other actual issues that haven't been found/discovered yet. Either way it goes there is no reason to be snarky.

Edited January 12, 2021 by SpecterDC13

[alphagamer4]

25 minutes ago, glide said:

You want the Su-27 and Mig-29S.  Bad boys.  Not sure how you set up your dogfights, but guns only is one option.  Short range missiles with ROE to restrict fire zones is another good one.  I like to wade into a furball with 4 Blue AI buddies against 5 or 6 Red AI's.  Your F-14 is designed for BVR engagement more than dogfighting.  I have the module myself, so I'll drop one in a mission and see if it can keep up.

 

All good tips. However, I am interested in seeing how one aircraft performs against another (guns only, guns + missile, etc.) in a dogfight with all else being held equal / constant. Best way to do that is have the AI control both aircraft, not 2 different humans.

 

That is how I discovered that the DCS AI and aircraft flight models are broken (e.g. a Rookie MiG-15 can take down an Ace F-14B, where the AI control both aircraft).

[Glide]

You should check out the AI Darpa fights on youtube:

 

[Mars Exulte]

46 minutes ago, alphagamer4 said:

Best way to do that is have the AI control both aircraft, not 2 different humans.

1. Easiest, but obviously not the best

 

2. Not the best anyway because they don't use the same flight model

 

3. Wouldn't be the best anyway, because the AI is not going to pick apart the intricacies of the best way to fly a plane in a given situation

 

46 minutes ago, alphagamer4 said:

That is how I discovered that the DCS AI and aircraft flight models are broken.

 You didn't ''discover'' anything, except that this is a video game. Like you, we were all shocked, shocked I tell you, when we realised it, too.

 

 The AI is being worked on, so are their flightmodels. I also question the usefulness of your experiments if you can't figure out MiG-15 vs F-14 on your own @@

[alphagamer4]

1 hour ago, glide said:

You should check out the AI Darpa fights on youtube:

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. It's awesome. I need to look into getting a job at DARPA.

[Glide]

IKR, how much fun would that be!

[DmitriKozlowsky]

What is really needed is multiple AI in DCS based on importance sample. 10 Migs far away from player, can use simples of AI FM. But if AI enters a bubble around player, its flight model AI should change to high fidelity, if available. Any AI that is being engaged by player, or player's missile should switch to high fidelity FM. AI vs AI, I'd say that ED should use simplest FM available. However a player Viper engaging AI Mig-29S, that AI Fulcrum should be using highest available fidelity flight model.

[Dragon1-1]

I think there's no need for a proper high-fidelity flight model, they just need to convincingly fake one. Most notably, AI doesn't require out of envelope modeling - they will never push the plane that far. They can have hard limits to keep them in a safe, predictable zone, where a human player would be able to push the envelope and get into edge cases that, while important IRL, are difficult to calculate. Eliminating those edge cases would simplify the FM drastically. That would result in every AI jet essentially having F16 level FBW-like behavior, but it'd be preferable to what we have now.

 

The most important thing is to make the AI obey (or pretend to obey) the most basic laws of physics on which energy fighting is based. All the intricacies of aerodynamics and especially edge cases can be dispensed with, except maybe for some oddities such as swing-wing aircraft (MiG-23, for example, shouldn't be able to change sweep when pulling Gs).

 

Oh, and another note. Don't test anything against the MiG-15. It's really an order of magnitude more broken than any other AI aircraft in DCS.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Dragon1-1

[alphagamer4]

Here is how I would position the DCS AI:

 

ROOKIE = Obeys laws of physics and airframe's flight model.

VETERAN = ROOKIE + ability to conduct BFM maneuvers.

ACE = ROOKIE + VETERAN + ability to conduct advanced BFM maneuvers.

 

You get the idea. Each higher level of AI skill builds upon the previous levels.

 

But to Dragon's point, the AI MUST obey the laws of physics and the airframe's flight model. Anything less is the AI cheating.

[Dragon1-1]

All of them should have the ability to fly decent BFM. The differences should be quantitative, not qualitative, ideally using the same "brain" code for deciding what to do. A "Rookie" AI should fly like a rookie pilot - slow to react, doesn't always pull as hard as it should, and randomly selecting another maneuver instead of what the algorithm "thinks" is the correct one. Going up in the levels, they should get increasingly better, with "Ace" AI always flying optimum BFM, as decided by the core AI "brain". Of course, that could make Ace predictable and rookie capable of serendipitously choosing a more effective maneuver (due to algorithm itself being imperfect), but this is IMO acceptable.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Dragon1-1

[alphagamer4]

23 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

All of them should have the ability to fly decent BFM. The differences should be quantitative, not qualitative, ideally using the same "brain" code for deciding what to do. A "Rookie" AI should fly like a rookie pilot - slow to react, doesn't always pull as hard as it should, and randomly selecting another maneuver instead of what the algorithm "thinks" is the correct one. Going up in the levels, they should get increasingly better, with "Ace" AI always flying optimum BFM, as decided by the core AI "brain". Of course, that could make Ace predictable and rookie capable of serendipitously choosing a more effective maneuver (due to algorithm itself being imperfect), but this is IMO acceptable.

 

 

We're just wasting our time pontificating here. ED will take forever to address the AI issue, regardless of its being on the roadmap.

[Dragon1-1]

So what else exactly do you propose to do? 

 

Here's a hint: try something that isn't the MiG-15 (like the MiG-19), and then come back. It seems like it should be the easiest opponent available, but it's not, because it's broken. The problems you see do not affect other jets nearly as much.

[Fri13]

I think the fastest fix could possibly be:

 

ROOKIE = 50% of the aircraft G capability.

VETERAN = 75% of the aircraft G capability.

ACE = 90% of the aircraft G capability.

 

The AI should have some kind a G meter programmed to them as they are using the SFM after all.

And I would think that all AI should be using all BFM there are available, but just at different capability.

 

After that G limit change, have the reaction time and input delay added based skill level.

 

ROOKIE = 50% delay to reaction and input.

VETERAN = 25% delay to reaction and input.

ACE = 0% delay to reaction and input.

 

Meaning that if AI is suppose to do something, they wait some delay to react to it. And their input is not instant but given at various speeds.

 

The AI at least some blind spots for spotting, couple years back, so you could actually fly behind them or under them and they didn't spot you. Or if they lose you in the fight, they return to fly somewhere to get bearings or something.

 

It would be needed that AI has their own vision cone simulated where they need to keep an eye on you, and then periodically check their flight instruments and then try to "lock on" you again with seek cone. And if they fail in that, they lost you and should try to acquire a lock again by starting with new maneuver etc.

[FlankerKiller]

Ok, I'm not trying to come off as a dick but. Because the AI behavior is definitely way to simple. However I'm not sure they totally cheat vs humans. So there are a few issues I see with your observation. One is that a Mig-15 should be a very tough fight for an F-14B, at least in a guns only turning fight it would be. Give the F-14 AIM-54s and place them sixty miles away, and see if the results change. The issue here isn't that the SFM the AI uses is so radically different from the FM your using. It isn't, not in broad strokes. It's that it's behaviors and tactics are really simple, and favor the the Mig-15 in this case. I can beat an Ai F-14B in the Saber or Mig over and over, and I can beat an Ai Saber or Mig in the F-14 the same way. But the tactics I use in the F-14 are not in the AI toolbox, at least not yet. Better AI is inbound, and hopefully that will fix a bunch of issues. I do think we need to keep on Ed's ass about it though. 

[TLTeo]

It does cheat, and it's quite easy to see. Go in a dogfight against an Ace level AI, and look for the G load at a given airspeed at which your jet starts bleeding energy in a level turn. Now check whether the AI at that same G and airspeed starts slowing down - it will not.

 

On topic, as others have said, all these simple fixes simply miss the point that the AI has no idea how to maneuver its jet correctly. Removing the "cheating" right now essentially means setting the AI to rookie/normal, and it's clear as day that when that happens, they essentially become free kills. Going beyond that requires re-writing the AI code completely, which hopefully ED will get to eventually.