TAW_Impalor Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) I know many have reported/questioned this already, and I too am patiently waiting for Vulcan/DCS 3.0/miracle. But I recently returned to flying IL2, now in VR, and am really curious why such a difference in clarity. Same 45 FPS, no per-app settings in SteamVR, but reprojection just works without ghosting in that sim. I stopped flying WW2 planes in DCS over a year ago because I cannot stand double bandits and milky terrain. I still enjoy my F18 in BVR, don't get me wrong, but any dogfight is just not possible anymore. Same was with CV1 before G2, so it's not a question of WMR vs Oculus reprojection. Somehow it works well in all games but DCS? Edited January 26, 2021 by impalor 1 1 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
speed-of-heat Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) my guess, and it is that, is that you are getting heavily hit on CPU in DCS and not in the other game ... Edited January 26, 2021 by speed-of-heat SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
dburne Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 Yeah for me and my Reverb G2 I have no problem with reprojection, in fact I prefer motion smoothing forced at 45 fps. I do have a pretty stout rig though. Don B EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | Gigabyte 4090 OC | 64 GB Corsair Vengeance 3200 MHz CL16 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |Virpil CM3 Stick w/ Alpha Prime Grip 200mm ext| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|
TAW_Impalor Posted January 27, 2021 Author Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, speed-of-heat said: my guess, and it is that, is that you are getting heavily hit on CPU in DCS and not in the other game ... Sure, but I still get 45 fps high in the sky. In a dogfight, the other plane gets a double. 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
PicklePicklePickle Posted January 27, 2021 Posted January 27, 2021 I am curious about this as well. From what I have seen, even with reprojection turned off if I bank at a specific rate and look out the side I can see doubling of features with the G2. The free flight Caucasus is a great example. When it starts, on the left hand side there is a thin coastline with a lake on one side and the ocean on the other. If I look at this while banking I can find a roll rate that makes 2 coastlines appear and that's without reprojection. I don't understand what in DCS could be causing that, one possibility is the HMD display itself(or maybe something in the graphics card) using a refresh technique(like interlacing) that momentarily shows both images. Another possibility is the response time of the LCD in the Reverb being too slow for 90Hz, yielding the double image effect. If the latter is the cause, then the effect would go away if an OLED HMD is used. Presumably it would also go away if going to 60Hz, not sure I have tried this. [Maximus XIII Hero] [i9-11900K (5.5Ghz)] [RTX3090] [128GB G.Skill @3800Mhz] [Samsung 980Pro] [Index/G2/8K+/8KX/VP2]
Hawkeye_UK Posted January 27, 2021 Posted January 27, 2021 Guys it pretty simple Il2 has been optimized for VR. Relatively speaking DCS is like a bag of spanners in the washing machine and it kind of works but its been surpassed heavily in the last few years as they have not invested in this sector early enough, or enough fullstop. Lets hope Vulcan comes sooner rather than later this year. You know there is an issue when people installing 3090's and only getting 5fps more lol. Game is heavily CPU bound - remember at the heart where still playing on an engine designed 15 years ago.... 1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F4E | F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5E | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |M2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | CH47 | OH58D | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai | Kola | Afgan | Iraq Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat
TAW_Impalor Posted January 27, 2021 Author Posted January 27, 2021 5 minutes ago, Hawkeye_UK said: remember at the heart where still playing on an engine designed 15 years ago.... Rather 20+, from Flanker times 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
speed-of-heat Posted January 27, 2021 Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, impalor said: Sure, but I still get 45 fps high in the sky. In a dogfight, the other plane gets a double. if your CPU frame time is high, then reprojection can't cope ... SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
TAW_Impalor Posted January 27, 2021 Author Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) I agree my CPU is "old", but there is something else going on. I set reprojection to Auto in WMR for SteamVR and enabled reprojection indicator. It is green when I look at a clear sky (90 fps), dark blue when I look at the horizon (45 fps), but if I stare at a dense urban area and not moving my head at all, with the game paused, something strange happens. Reprojection starts alterating quickly between red and blue/light blue, together or separate. FPS keeps jumping randomly in a range between 35 and 50, with somewhat repeating pattern every second. Also, after some time in this state, artefacts start to appear - like dark lightning strikes inside the VR space, BUT also on my desktop - I saw chart frames in the Task Manager getting jagged. After that state my SteamVR sometimes crashes with 'Unexpected error'. Steam support replied, after I sent them logs, 'this is not caused by Steam but by the game or some third-party app' (surprise, surprise!) Any airframe, any trees/preload values, shadows on or off. Everything else I have at bearable minimum already. Now, if I set reprojection to Motion Vector (always on), none of that happens, BUT the same exact picture will be rendered at low 30 FPS. With reprojection OFF I am getting 45 FPS on that frame! See the two screens attached (sorry for poor resolution), same paused state. Reprojection costs 15 FPS??? The problem is, DCS looks like manure with no reprojection. Is it only for PCs that maintain minimum 45 FPS no matter what? IL2 on Ultra settings, 8v8 over Stalingrad, FPS never drops below 55... You guessed what I fly more this year. Edit: my 1080ti is EVGA Hybrid, factory overclocked - may explain the artifacts Edited January 27, 2021 by impalor 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
speed-of-heat Posted January 27, 2021 Posted January 27, 2021 Turn off MSAA and shadows SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
TAW_Impalor Posted January 27, 2021 Author Posted January 27, 2021 That is something I cannot fly without. Hornet cockpit looks too bright and washed out without shadows, plus they have 0 FPS impact in my tests. I removed all other shadows in the game, including those on the carrier deck. Killing MSAA does add 10 FPS over build-up areas. Pausing over the same spot no longer triggers on/off reprojection twitch on AUTO, and keeps at 45 on forced. So 55-60 FPS w/o reprojection is the minimum for it to work in DCS. But man, Supercarrier looks so ugly with all those wires and railings shimmering. And I get the same 30 FPS on deck with or without MSAA, regardless! So I better off keeping it on. 99% of time I do not fly low over urban areas in the Hornet. I updated the game, cleared the caches, reinstalled the mods, and tested again. Same annoying thing: 50 FPS become 30 as soon as I enforce reprojection over buildings. This is definitely NOT happening in IL2 or other games! 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
speed-of-heat Posted January 27, 2021 Posted January 27, 2021 Then down sample your g2,... either one works but your 1080ti and i5 just aren’t going to do the job with a g2... at 100% in steamvr... with aa with shadows... 1 SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
TAW_Impalor Posted January 27, 2021 Author Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) I know all my options, I choose to fly as I am now. My question to DCS devs is why enabling reprojection at 50 FPS drops it immediately to 30. So it does not work... Edited January 27, 2021 by impalor 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
holce Posted January 27, 2021 Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) I have a rtx 2070and a g2 ,i have found what works for me is running at half res but alaising at 4x in nvidia control panel(msaa in dcs is a frame hit),also setting the view to extreme within dcs to stop distant objects looking pixelated, ghosting has dissapeared for me . i dont use reprojection and rolled my nvidia drivers back to 451.48 Edited January 27, 2021 by holce
speed-of-heat Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 5 hours ago, impalor said: I know all my options, I choose to fly as I am now. My question to DCS devs is why enabling reprojection at 50 FPS drops it immediately to 30. So it does not work... With the g2 you have 90hz and 60hz, 50is not an option. At 60hz if you force reprojection on or if your pc cannot maintain a frame time compatible with 60hz it will drop to 30... your pc will not be able to maintain 60hz at those settings so you get 30... SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
TAW_Impalor Posted January 28, 2021 Author Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) I don't run my G2 at 60, I told you it goes to 90 when I look up. Over built up areas I see 50 w/o reprojection. It drops to 30 when I turn it on, instead of going to 45 and reprojecting. My PC is fine with other games. This oddity only happens with DCS. I don't know why it takes three times to explain... Edited January 28, 2021 by impalor 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
speed-of-heat Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 maybe because what you are saying does not translate to my experience SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
otavio Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 51 minutes ago, impalor said: I don't run my G2 at 60, I told you it goes to 90 when I look up. Over built up areas I see 50 w/o reprojection. It drops to 30 when I turn it on, instead of going to 45 and reprojecting. My PC is fine with other games. This oddity only happens with DCS. I don't know why it takes three times to explain... The exact same issue is happening with people running RX 6800's with Windows Mixed Reality. Now I don't know if it's a WMR bug or a driver issue. Ryzen 5 3600x @ GTX 1070 on Samsung Odyssey+ :joystick: Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog, Saitek Pro Flight Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 4 Pro
TAW_Impalor Posted January 28, 2021 Author Posted January 28, 2021 Ok. I think the reason for dropping 20 FPS from my low range is that WMR reprojection comes with heavy CPU overhead. Since I am more CPU bound than GPU at heavy scenes, enabling reprojection hurts more than helps. Especially when trapping wires or refueling with other planes nearby - every low range FPS counts. Same with the Shaders Mod - I see no FPS benefit whatsoever, just long loading times. So I ditched both of them. Ditching MSAA, rather than reducing SS below 100%, helped upper range FPS high in the air, when I become GPU bound. I can ignore shimmering runway and carrier lines for better WVR experience and sharp looking cockpit. P51 vs P51 quick mission is now flyable, with 60 to 90 FPS. I will wait out this year and look into building new rig after Vulcan comes online and dictates, what's important. 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
TAW_Impalor Posted January 29, 2021 Author Posted January 29, 2021 This actually explains back-and-forth switching of reprojection. When FPS drops below 45 it turns off, CPU overhead disappears, FPS jumps back to 50+, reprojection turns on again to choke CPU and tank FPS again. In a constant loop, several times a second. Memory leak or something causes SteamVR to crash after some time. 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
BlackSharkAce Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 This actually explains back-and-forth switching of reprojection. When FPS drops below 45 it turns off, CPU overhead disappears, FPS jumps back to 50+, reprojection turns on again to choke CPU and tank FPS again. In a constant loop, several times a second. Memory leak or something causes SteamVR to crash after some time.What I do is clamp my FPS to 45, then it’s constantly reprojecting and the workload levels out.
TAW_Impalor Posted January 30, 2021 Author Posted January 30, 2021 Yes, if without reprojection your rig can always maintain at least 60 FPS. No, if, like me, you are CPU limited and reprojection costs 20 FPS when on. Then in turns off in certain situations when smooth performance most needed. I fly without it now and it is better. 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
BlackSharkAce Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 Yes, if without reprojection your rig can always maintain at least 60 FPS. No, if, like me, you are CPU limited and reprojection costs 20 FPS when on. Then in turns off in certain situations when smooth performance most needed. I fly without it now and it is better.I think reprojection is handled by steamVR. So you can set a different CPU affinity to those threads and not take away from the main game thread. Works in my end with a 8700k & 1080 ti @ 80% SS.
TAW_Impalor Posted January 31, 2021 Author Posted January 31, 2021 I played with process lasso before, 4 cores were not enough. At any config my PC was becoming unstable. 12900KF@5.4, 32GB DDR4@4000cl14g1, 4090, M.2, W10 Pro, Warthog HOTAS, ButtKicker, Reverb G2/OpenXR
BlackSharkAce Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 I played with process lasso before, 4 cores were not enough. At any config my PC was becoming unstable.4 cores is a bit tight indeed, I see your cpu and ram are quite “slow” compared to your GPU. Shader mods and such will help for sure, but can’t do magic.
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