Virpil CM3 throttle – setting up detents and comparison with CM2

[imacken]

CM3 vs CM2

 

The differences between these two throttles are largely cosmetic and fairly minor, with one major exception.

 

a) Encoders E1 ad E2 have different dials. In my opinion, I much prefer the new dials.  They are tapered and have a more positive feel when turning.

 

b) Flaps axis has a dimpled top. Makes it slightly easier to move with the extra grip.

 

c) Mode switch dial and switch are different.  Maybe just a difference between individual examples, but the CM3 switch felt smoother and more positive. My CM2 mode switch has a slightly crunchy feel to it.

 

d) Throttles are taller giving more sensitive throw. 

 

e) Improved throttle uncoupling switch.  The CM2 uncoupling switch was awkward and stiff to use, and the CM3 version has greatly improved on this. I have read that some people are not so happy about how loose the CM3 uncoupler is, and I feel that it could have been given a bit more resistance, but I much prefer the way it is on the CM3. Very easy to couple/uncouple.  I have also read that some people believe there is too much play and movement when the throttles are coupled. I don’t see any difference between the CM3 and CM2 in this respect. Anyway, when they are coupled, their outputs are linked, so it makes no difference.

 

f) Button 22 has changed.  Flat now rather than the previous indent. Cosmetic.

 

g) Rotary dial on left throttle moulding has changed. Fairly cosmetic, but makes a bit of a difference in that the new indent makes it more obvious that there is a button press on the knob.  I feel that both the left and right rotaries on the throttles feel more positive when being moved, but again, that could be down to individual samples.

 

h)The biggest issue by a long way, is that Virpil, in their wisdom, have changed the button configuration on 2 of the 5-way hats, i.e. buttons 23-26 and 28-31.  Now, I’m sure they had their reasons, but this means having to rebind all of these buttons in every DCS module and every other game.  What a pain!

 

 

General Comments

 

a) The zoom slider axis on my first CM3, which I had to return to Virpil, had an issue in that for part of its travel, it scraped along the side of the casing making an annoying sound.  The replacement throttle zoom axis makes a sound throughout its travel.  Now, I think this might be deliberate from Virpil as what it does is make the movement slightly stiffer compared to the CM2.  The advantage of this is that the slider stays in position better than the CM2 which always tended to return to its centre position too easily.  I just wish this could have been done without the scraping feel.

 

b) Detent screws.  When I was experimenting with the different detents, I was aware that the supplied screws and allen key were not of the best quality, and might be prone to wearing.  So, I bought some better quality screws – M3 x 12 A2 (as advised by Virpil)  - online in advance of getting my replacement CM3, but when I tried to use them, I met resistance after about one turn, so I decided not to go any further and risk breaking the thread.  I will consult with Virpil on that. Seems strange. UPDATE: Just tried the bought screws again and everything was OK, so must just have been a bad one in the batch.

 

c) The packaging is appalling for an almost £500 (including taxes and delivery) item.  Just a blank white cardboard box with the throttle inside a flimsy piece of bubble wrap.  Nothing else – apart from a useless piece of cardboard – to protect the unit in transit.  This has been the same for all the Virpil devices I have bought.  Very poor, and really needs to be addressed in the future.

 

d) On both the CM3s, there is a discrepancy between the throttle movements when uncoupled.  By that I mean the percentage travel is different by a few percentage points when being moved together. UPDATE: I resolved this issue by adjusting the DZ Min and DZ Max for both throttles.  Quite a complicated process to work out what is going on, especially as one of the axes is inverted, but in essence, you have to adjust each one to provide the correct and identical amount of travel between the detents. In my case, that is 4%-72%. I achieved that with a DZ Min of 1 for both left and right, and DZ Max of 4 for the left throttle and 1 for the right.

 

e) The detent mechanism works really well, but it does require quite a physical effort to lift them into afterburner. I asked Virpil if this could be loosened a bit, but apparently not.  Now, this isn’t a big issue, but it does make them quite hard to use if you have your throttle sitting on a desk  - as opposed to being mounted – like me.  This is because the throttle can move around a bit on the desk when lifting the levers over the detents.  (I’ve got Virpil desk mounts on order!)

 

 

Setting Up the Detents

 

Various types of detent are supplied with the CM3, and after a lot of experimenting, I am currently using the Classic Plus set.  This is mainly because I like having a notch on the idle/stop and a lift – as opposed to a push through - for the afterburner. UPDATE -  after several days of use, I changed my mind and am now using the Classic set both front and back. I decided that there wasn't any real benefit of having a notch.  There is more of a case for the idle position, but not really for the forward/AB one.  Personal choice.

 

Obviously, there are 2 aspects to the setup, the stop/idle detent and the afterburner detent.

 

1) Idle/stop Detent

There have been various videos on this subject which tend to use the VPC software to map some of the throttle travel to 2 customised buttons to act as the throttles in an ‘off’ and ‘move to idle state’ in the axis panel. Now, as you only have 4 axis-to-button slots for the whole device, this seemed a little wasteful to me. Not everyone is aware that there are also pre-set ranges for axis-to-button which can be accessed by double clicking on the relevant axis in the axis panel. There you can see various ranges, 0%, 0-20%, etc.  The only disadvantage of using this method is that you can’t choose which button the axis will output, but I don’t see that as a problem.  (As an aside, I use this method on the flaps lever axis for the flaps stages on the Hornet. 3 axis to buttons for 0-20%, 40-60% and 80-100% for auto, half and full).

 

I did a little initial experimentation with bindings in DCS, and decided that I didn’t think 2 buttons were required for the idle/stop detent. So, for both the throttle axes, I selected the pre-defined 0% and none of the custom slots.  Then, I setup those 2 buttons in the buttons panel in the VPC software to give them a logical button number for Windows to recognise, physical 73 and 74 in the attached image.

 

UPDATE: After locating my physical detent fully back on the throttle, I then defined the binding in DCS.  For most modules, setting the 0% as either throttle/engine idle/stop or idle or stop works fine.  In order to work out which binding works best, just go to a ‘Cold and Dark’ mission and try out various options.  For example, the Hornet, Viper and F-5E work nicely with OFF/IDLE set to the 0% button. Others work well with it just set to OFF and moves OK into idle from OFF.  However, this is down to different modules having different configurations.

 

I have successfully configured 12-15 modules this way.  (The only one that didn’t work was the A-10C.  That requires a button for OFF and START.  On that, I just used the defined physical buttons 127 and 128 as START and the 0% buttons as STOP. This is a little annoying, having to use 2 button slots just for one module, so you could just use the 0% button + modifier in DCS instead). 

 

UPDATE to A-10C:  After discussion in another thread, there is now a way to solve the A-10C issue by inserting 2 lines of code into the files E:\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\A-10C_2\Input\A-10C_2\joystick\default.lua (and the equivalent for the A-10C).  These lines are from the Warthog lua file and are examples of bindings that are available to the WH, but, rather bizarrely, not to other devices.

The lines are:

{down = iCommandLeftEngineStop , up = iCommandLeftEngineStart,  name = _('Left Engine Throttle Set OFF') , category = _('Systems')},
{down = iCommandRightEngineStop, up = iCommandRightEngineStart, name = _('Right Engine Throttle Set OFF'), category = _('Systems')},

By inserting these lines into the default.lua files and binding the 'Left (and right) Engine Throttle Set OFF' to the 0% button, the A-10c works exactly the same as the others now, and I was able to remove the virtual buttons 128 and 127 from VPC software.

 

IMPORTANT: If you want to use this technique, it is important that you set up the VPC software dead zones appropriately, otherwise it won’t work due to the sensitivity of the device.  By default, I’m pretty sure Virpil have a dead zone of 4 on the ‘Axes lock function’. This must be set to 0.  The values for DZ Min and DZ Max for each throttle axis need to be adjusted as well to achieve synced movement between them.  See above in General Comments d).

 

The final thing you have to do is to define throttle dead zones for each module within DCS to avoid having throttle thrust when stopped on the runway when just past the idle detent.  With the throttle just sitting fully back past the detent, go to your axis settings for each module, and you will see a bit of movement in the throttle bar.  What you need to do, is to set a dead zone in ‘Axis Tune’ so that white bar just disappears.  In my case, I need a DZ of 4 in every module. (See attachment).

 

2) Afterburner Detent

So, you’ve got your idle/stop working, now for the afterburner (AB).  This is a little more fiddly than the idle/stop one as it requires fine tuning for each module.

 

The first thing to do is to locate and secure your physical detent in the fully forward position.  This allows maximum movement of the throttles.  Then, you must – by trial and error – adjust the ‘X Saturation’ curve in DCS Axis Tune settings for each module so that the jet’s AB comes on just after you go over the forward detent.  This means that for each module, you will be a max mil power at the detent, and kick into AB just after.

 

Let’s look at the process.  As an example, load up the Hornet Free Flight mission, put the plane into barometric hold, go to external view and rotate to the back so you can see what’s going on with the afterburners.  Now, push the throttles up to the detent. The likelihood is that you won’t see the AB come on.  Push the throttle just past the detent.  You might now just see the AB start to come on, but not necessarily.  What you have to do is adjust the ‘X Saturation’ curve in ‘Axis Tuning’, so that you don’t see any AB when in front of the detent, but you do see AB fully kicking in after the detent.

 

In my case, the Hornet was 85% (see attachment), and although the process had to be repeated for each module with an AB, they were all similar values, and you only have to do it once!

 

 

Aircraft Without Afterburners

 

Not all planes have ABs, e.g. Spitfire, A-10C, etc., so you need to deal with them.  Clearly, removing the detents, or just keeping them in place to reach 100% throttle say, is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination.  So, what you must do, is adjust the curves to that the distance between the detents represents 100% travel.  Then you just keep the throttle control movement between the detents.

 

This is done by firstly adjusting the dead zone in the same way as in the idle/stop procedure to give you the 0% position, and secondly, use a similar procedure as above for the AB to fix the 100% position.  To do this, put the throttle in the forward position just before the detent, then in DCS Axis Tune settings, adjust the ‘X Saturation’ until you see the white bar filling the box.  (In my case, all modules were 72% X Saturation, this being the percentage travel of the throttles to the AB detent - as can be seen in the VPC software). Test it by moving the throttle fully forward and back to check that you are getting 0% to 100% between the detents. Although this method does give you a reduced physical travel, with the detents positioned as widely apart as possible and the extra height from the CM3 throttles, in practice, I feel it doesn’t make much difference.

 

Then, you are all good to go!

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by imacken

[dburne]

Great review and write up!

Thanks for posting.

[wowbagger]

Brilliant!

 

Big thanks.

[bad_turbulence]

Amazing detail.  Thanks for the copious account of these two great throttles.

[epolta]

thanks @imacken! I'm pretty sure I'll need to read this a few times when i finally get my throttle but so far, so good for helping me understand..

 

cheers

8 hours ago, imacken said:

 

I have successfully configured 12-15 modules this way.  (The only one that didn’t work was the A-10C.  That requires a button for OFF and START.  On that, I just used the button as START and START + modifier for OFF rather than redefining everything just for that one module.) 

Something that is a bit confusing for me.. For the modifier - is that another button binding you are holding down as you move the throttles forward or is there another way to do that? scratching my head... thanks!

[imacken]

You can add modifiers in DCS settings.  It works like a button combination, and in essence doubles the number of bindings available.

I use it for quite a few things.  I have button 21 set as my modifier in DCS and so things like all the main 5 kneeboard commands are set to button 21 + hat press 8-12, for example.  I also use it for things like seat adjust, and some views.

Very useful if used properly.

[imacken]

Sorry, I should also have said that yes, you are right in the case of the A-10C. Press a modifier and the throttle at the same time.

[imacken]

I've updated the button configuration diagram to take into account Virpil's changes in the CM3 compared to the CM2.

Hope you find it useful.

[dburne]

Nice thanks for the image!

[HC_Official]

I take it these are the logical button numbers ?

Might want to put a not on the pic that physical button  8 controls the throttle lock detection

[imacken]

I didn't want to get into the physical buttons, e.g. for coupling and the mode switch, as they don't generally show in Windows. This was purely for what users see for the default logical buttons in Windows. 

I also didn't highlight the 6 LED button numbers in different mode states as the diagram would become a little complicated!

[HC_Official]

this pic is for the out of the box 5 way mode modifier profile with no POV enabled on it ?

Edited January 30, 2021 by HC_Official

[imacken]

Correct!

[Sokol1_br]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:45 AM, imacken said:

Aircraft Without Afterburners

 

Not all planes have ABs, e.g. Spitfire,

 

 

 

Indeed, Spitfire has no "afterburner", but Mk.IX have a detent  "boost" are of the throttle, requiring move the throttle lever a bit for left for by=pass the detent, why the throttle rail have an width area.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

https://vintageaviation.fi/spitfire-throttle-quadrants/

 

[imacken]

21 minutes ago, Sokol1_br said:

 

Indeed, Spitfire has no "afterburner", but Mk.IX have a detent  "boost" are of the throttle, requiring move the throttle lever a bit for left for by=pass the detent, why the throttle rail have an width area.

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

https://vintageaviation.fi/spitfire-throttle-quadrants/

 

Let's not derail this thread, but I don't think that is modelled in DCS Spit.

[imacken]

Just made some changes and updates to the first post after spending a few more days refining the process and my thoughts!  (Not all changes are marked.)

[Gman109]

Very well done Imacken, I have 2 CM3s arriving tomorrow, and was looking for some sort of guide on how to set up the physical detents (I have all the versions of Virpil's throttles, and the first version had internal detents, but I've long forgotten how I even set those up).  This is great, thanks for sharing your work, and saving the rest of us a lot of time and pita figuring this all out.

[Archer943]

@imacken, First off, I'd just like to say thanks for putting so much effort into sharing your knowledge.  It definitely helps noobs like me out!!!!  So with that said, I'm hoping you can straighten me out with following your CM Detent set-up procedure.  This may get a little confusing, so I'm including screenshots to help explain what I mean.  I regard to your General Comments Section D, My problem is the throttles having different percentages when uncoupled.  They are synched when coupled throughout the full range of motion from 0% behind the physical idle detent through 100% past the physical A/B detent.  The issue for me is when they are uncoupled for engine startup in the F-18 in my case.  Uncoupled, they both read 0%, but as soon as you move the left OR right throttle, the other's percentage changes even though it has physically not been moved. When the Left throttle is resting past the detent it is reading 2%, when I advance the Right throttle to rest past the detent, they both switch to reading 3% And when they are coupled in that same position, they both read 4%!!!!!  They do not split and read separate percentages until one of them reaches 8% at which point they read independent percentages right up to 73% at the Physical A/B detent. Once again when you advance one throttle uncoupled past the A/B detent, they become synched between 73-75% and once the one throttle that was advanced passes 75%, the unmoved throttle drops back to 73%.  I have zero idea what I'm doing and tried adjusting the DZ Min an Max as per your guide, but it did nothing and I don't know if that was only to fix an issue when they are synched.  Any help/Advice that you can give me to fix this issue would be really appreciated!!  I've managed to map the Flap axis to 3 buttons using your guide, so I'm not a total idiot lol, I just can't figure this throttle situation out.  Thanks.

 

Kevin

 

[imacken]

I think you should read my note in post #1 marked IMPORTANT. Pretty sure that’ll solve your issue. You haven’t set the Axes Lock Function DZ to 0. 

[Archer943]

@imacken Thanks!!!  Lol, I completely missed that part.  I'm all set up now.  My settings are a little different from yours with my particular unit.  Thanks again for all of your help.

[imacken]

Glad you got it sorted!

[Caldera]

Thanks imacken!

 

For myself, I just received my Virpil HOTAS.  It is a big switch from the Logitech x56 and has taken me some time to reconfigure it to my liking.  Thinking I am about there.

 

Using the VPC software I was quite surprised to find out that I could make a logical button press from a axis control and still bind that axis independently.   I have not been exposed to that before, usually just got one or the other.  My mind was already wondering over using that feature for after burner or war emergency power, because I can set it to any value I want.  But alas, I only fly the A-10C very much at all.  So far, the only thing I am using in that way is the flaps lever on the CM3 for landing gear raise and lower.   It just looks and feels right. 

 

You can also map the 5 position mode switch to buttons.  I thought about using that as a modifier, but seemed like kind of a waste.  I am using it as the A-10C CMSP mode selector switch.

 

So far, love it!

 

Caldera

Edited February 17, 2021 by Caldera

[epolta]

Yes @imacken great piece of kit!...my CM3 throttle arrived yesterday and I've been absolutely thrilled with it...I've had a virpil stick and base for a few years but I really underestimated how much I would absolutely love this throttle.. been on the warthog throttle for over 3 years and was wondering and worrying about having the right keybinding options but can't believe what a leap ahead this is over the warthog..Thanks for the detailed tutorial as it was smooth sailing getting everything configured...man oh man loving this throttle!

[imacken]

Yep, it's a great piece of kit!

[epolta]

On 1/29/2021 at 4:45 AM, imacken said:

d) On both the CM3s, there is a discrepancy between the throttle movements when uncoupled.  By that I mean the percentage travel is different by a few percentage points when being moved together. UPDATE: I resolved this issue by adjusting the DZ Min and DZ Max for both throttles.  Quite a complicated process to work out what is going on, especially as one of the axes is inverted, but in essence, you have to adjust each one to provide the correct and identical amount of travel between the detents. In my case, that is 4%-72%. I achieved that with a DZ Min of 1 for both left and right, and DZ Max of 4 for the left throttle and 1 for the right.

@imacken, Thanks again for this excellent tutorial. I've done all the steps with the exception of the routine outlined above. Do you have any screenshots of where you adjusted these values quoted above? Thanks!