Ground Radar and TOO Mode for JDAMS

[Delareon]

havent found a Topic about it so far, feel free to point me to the Solution if this is allready discussed and im not smart enough for the search function. 

 

Maybe im thinking in the wrong direction but i tried to use the Ground Radar to destroy some stationary vehicles. 

With a little bit of training im now able to spot man made objects and in this case a few vehicles. 

So far so good, now i tried to Bomb that vehicles. 

I switched to TOO Mode of the JDAMS, locked them on the Radar and as soon as im inside of the Parameters, the Bomb goes away. 

But i only come close to the Target and wasnt able to hit a BPM with a JDAM. 

Are those Vehicles simply not the correct type of targets to use with that Sensor/Weapon combination?

 

If i compare the Radar in DCS with the one in those other F16 Simulation i can even decide if i want to hit the Driver on his left or his right eye with the Radar there. So i was thinking that i can do something similar here too.

 

Am i not able to hit something smaller than a Building with JDAMS and Radar through the Clouds or is it just me?

 

Also what i experienced: If i use the Training Bombs and try to fire them on Auto Mode on a Radar Contact, the Bomb goes away exactly above the Contact (zero Miles) and for that reason miles behind the target. Anyone else experiencing this?

[vulkanic]

Sorry if this is telling you how to suck eggs, and I'm assuming that you're using the TPOD as opposed to manually entering co-ordinates; but I've had JDAM accuracy issues when I haven't been high enough, I think if you lase them whilst you are fairly low or at an oblique angle it screws with the co-ordinates. I get good results from 12-20k ft either aiming at the base of the target i.e. the ground underneath the target or sometimes nearly directly over, basically as close to perpendicular as I can get away with.

 

[Delareon]

No in this Scenario is no TPod possible, Clouds are low and and closed over so you cant see through. 

The JDAMs are getting coordinates it just seems not possible to be accurate enough in the Radar to hit a Vehicle.
Maybe one point of the equation is to get higher, last time i was only at 15k.

[Sceptre]

if tgp is not available, the only way is to know the coordinates before hand and drop in pre planned mode. the a/g radar is not accurate enough to find targets and employ jdams without the use of the tgp to fine tune the coordinates. this is also true in the real jet.

 

the other simulator you are referring to has an a/g radar which way over performs how the real one behaves.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Sceptre

[falcon_120]

This is correct. The A2G radar is/should not able to generate coordinates precise enough to hit a small vehicle or object with a JDAM. 

Probably you could hit a warehouse or big factory though.

[Delareon]

Thanks then i was missleaded by another Simulator which claims to be super accurate but actually isnt in this case at least.

 

Ok then i need to think about other Scenarios for the AG Radar.

Has anybody tried to drop Training or Dumb Bombs ar a Radar Contact?
As i said before at least the Training bomb was dropped when i was exactly above the Target so the Bomb could never hit only if they would go straight down like a laser cannon.

[Swift.]

1 hour ago, Delareon said:

Thanks then i was missleaded by another Simulator which claims to be super accurate but actually isnt in this case at least.

 

Ok then i need to think about other Scenarios for the AG Radar.

Has anybody tried to drop Training or Dumb Bombs ar a Radar Contact?
As i said before at least the Training bomb was dropped when i was exactly above the Target so the Bomb could never hit only if they would go straight down like a laser cannon.

Don't feel the need to justify the existence of AG radar for APG73 by devising convoluted scenarios to use it in, they certainly don't bother IRL.

[Northstar98]

12 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

Don't feel the need to justify the existence of AG radar for APG73 by devising convoluted scenarios to use it in, they certainly don't bother IRL.

 

Since when were clouds a "convoluted scenario"? As as for not bothering IRL, when were mid-2000s Hornets flying over the Caucasus again? 

[Swift.]

2 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Since when were clouds a "convoluted scenario"? As as for not bothering IRL, when were mid-2000s Hornets flying over the Caucasus again? 

Clouds eh? Aren't they those things that show up on AG radar, QED would hinder any kind of targeting one might attempt through them?

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Swiftwin9s said:

Clouds eh? Aren't they those things that show up on AG radar, QED would hinder any kind of targeting one might attempt through them?

 

You ever see clouds in your RADAR?

Edited February 1, 2021 by Northstar98

[Fri13]

8 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

This is correct. The A2G radar is/should not able to generate coordinates precise enough to hit a small vehicle or object with a JDAM. 

Probably you could hit a warehouse or big factory though.

 

If the factory is middle of nowhere, then you get it in that area and you can get it somewhere in 50 x 50 meters by approximation when you get close. And that is enough for area effect with even iron bomb. At least that is what I get in a good manner for a compound middle of nowhere and I know exactly that "in the South-West corner is the target".

 

But JDAM like JSOW etc are anyways more of a "load the coordinates before arming them to aircraft and release on the release point and get back to home". The A-G radar is just....

 

 

 

[Northstar98]

So far I've managed to dumb bomb a ship with SEA Mode RADAR, and there it's pretty decent (DM issues aside), it gets the job done. But I wouldn't use it for getting coordinates, unless it's a large target.

 

But if we got a mission planner & full DTC compatibility, Fri13 is right, we'd simply designate targets and their parameters (coordinates, elevation, terminal parameters), and have them loaded into all pre-planned targets where necessary.

[LastRifleRound]

The answer to the question 'Can you hit a vehicle in DCS using the radar and a JDAM' is yes. I've attached a track of this working in DCS.  You were all answering the question 'Is it realistic to use the radar to drop a JDAM on a vehicle'. Now, if you want to know what is going on, read on.

 

There are 2 things going on here:

 

1. INS designations for the radar are currently bugged. See the acknowledged bug reports here and here. What this means is if you want to use an INS designation to bomb something  you would have to active pause the simulation, perform a few designations so the radar picture 'catches up' to where it should be. Once that happens, your designations will be 100% accurate. However, when this bug is fixed, what happens then is determined by whether ED will model map shift. If they are, then you can expect no more than 100ft of accuracy out of an INS designation. This accuracy would be achieved from a designation at about 450kts 45degrees off from the target at about 7nm. The faster, closer, and more off-angle you are, the more accurate your INS designation should be (not now, again this is if ED fixes that bug and models map shift). To learn more about how this works and what the real world procedure is, I encourage you to read the TACMAN. If not the Hornet then you could acquire one regarding the AV8B's APG65. You will find the procedures and modes therein identical to what is currently modeled with the Hornet and as such should be sufficiently accurate for our purposes in DCS. Bottom line, right now, expect several hundred feet of inaccuracy with the current INS designation system due to a bug. To bomb something so small, you would have to active pause the simulation to pull it off, and that's quite 'gamey', but it's your product, do it if you want.

 

2. You could choose to initiate an FTT. This WOULD give you accuracy enough to hit the target. However, it sounds like in your scenario, you have multiple vehicles. ED DOES simulate the AG radar track mechanic accurately, in that the beam will try to lock the strongest return at the scale of the RBM map, not EXP. Unlike the real thing though, it never 'changes its mind' once it tracks something. What this means is if you have several objects, be they vehicles or placed structures, you have no way of knowing which object the radar is tracking without getting a visual on it. Place a bunch of structures down in the ME, make a few moving vehicles among them on a patrol route, and try to GMTT or FTT something. You will notice the target the radar 'selects' is unpredictable. This is true to real life and this in combination with #1 is why the Hornet is not designed to bomb blind with the radar even if you can clearly see your target on the radar map. Now, if that BMP is all by itself then FTT in DCS will give you an accurate enough relative position to land a JDAM close enough to destroy it. This is what I demonstrate on the attached track. Seeing as the vehicle is alone in an open field, I know in DCS the radar will track it and nothing else. FTT DOES generate enough accuracy IN DCS to hit with a JDAM. If there's a group of vehicles and you don't care which one you hit or have a JSOW you want to dump off (motor pools are VERY recognizable on the radar), this is a valid approach in DCS. Find your group of (stationary) vehicles, drop an FTT in there, and drop your bomb.

 

The procedure outlined in official documentation when radar bombing (assuming dumb bombs being used) is to begin a 30 degree offset from the target 15nm out. By about 7nm that should grow to 45deg (you'll have to adjust as you go on I've found). This will give you good enough resolution to figure out where your target is. The whole way you 'sharpen' your designation. At 7nm, you make your final designation. If the target is FTT appropriate, initiate it. Roll in, SCS up to the HUD. The diamond should be close enough to the target for you to find the target visually (or if your FTT was good it will be right on it). Slew the diamond over the target. If the diamond is too far away or other factors prohibit slewing it to the target, undesignate and use CCIP. I guess this wasn't used all that much if ever in real life, but there it is all the same. There are no procedures for radar bombing that involve any PGMs or any other methods outlined in the documentation. Maybe they exist but if they do I don't know them and I haven't seen anyone else mention them.

 

As others have stated, the scenario you're using probably wouldn't exist in the real world. If you care about that, then change the scenario. If you don't, have fun with it. Life is short. 

 

It's a game. Knowing how it works in real life is a good thing and the sim should strive for that, but so is knowing how it works in the sim, then YOU get to decide how YOU want to approach it. You also get to know what might change later, what ED still has to work on, and so on. Watch Mover's channel. He doesn't even read the manual many times. He's just having fun his way and that's good enough, then other times he'll do sorties with full comms and what not. It's all good and it's all valid and you shouldn't be shamed out of making whatever the hell scenario you feel like and talking about it. That's a pedant's game and you don't have to play it. Now, if you came on here and demanded that the AG Radar be accurate enough to do this, then I'd say the reactions would be justified and the answers you got here would apply. But you didn't. You simply wanted to know why you were missing.

 

TL:DR; You're missing with your JDAMS because you are not using FTT and there is a bug in INS designations. INS designations are perfect in the absence of this bug, but may not be in the future if map shift is modeled. Whether or not the scenario OP made is true to real life does not describe what is happening in the sim. His bomb is missing because INS designations are bugged on the radar format, not because of AG Radar modeling. As others have said, that 'other' sim isn't very realistic in its approach to AG radar if it's giving you that level of accuracy.

 

JDAM_FTT.trk

Edited February 2, 2021 by LastRifleRound

[Delareon]

Thanks @LastRifleRound for the detailed description.
Oh and dont worry, im old enough to dont care if anybody told me i shouldnt do this or that just because in his oppinion its not like in RL. 

The only thing i currently  trying to achieve is to find a good Scneario to train the usage of AG Radar. If its realistic or not is interesting but not that important.

Using Weather Situations where i cant do it visually and have to rely on Radar seems good to me just because i cant cheat on myself and do it visually. 

Basically thats the Reason why i tried to Bomb Vehicles with Radar Guidance. They dont have to be JDAMS too, was just a logical choice because they are guided and if i miss with them, my Radar Acquisition was to Blame. At least thats how i approached this. 

Using Radar to Bomb Buildings doesnt seem logical to me because its a Building... i should have Coordinates before hand and for that Reason be able to Bomb them with JDAMS in PP Mode without any Problems. 

 

Funny, if i read that correctly there is not really a way to Bomb Vehicles through the Clouds, i always have to do the last bits visually. Only Exception might be if i dont care (or dont expect) collateral damage and want to destroy everything in that Convoi for example. But then i would use something like Cluster Bombs to kill a larger Group.

But it seems like nobody ever dropped Dumb Boms at a Radar Contact in DCS?

At least nobody can tell me if they experience the same behavior that they Release way too late in Auto Mode and hit something Miles away from the Target.

[LastRifleRound]

1 hour ago, Delareon said:

Thanks @LastRifleRound for the detailed description.
Oh and dont worry, im old enough to dont care if anybody told me i shouldnt do this or that just because in his oppinion its not like in RL. 

The only thing i currently  trying to achieve is to find a good Scneario to train the usage of AG Radar. If its realistic or not is interesting but not that important.

Using Weather Situations where i cant do it visually and have to rely on Radar seems good to me just because i cant cheat on myself and do it visually. 

Basically thats the Reason why i tried to Bomb Vehicles with Radar Guidance. They dont have to be JDAMS too, was just a logical choice because they are guided and if i miss with them, my Radar Acquisition was to Blame. At least thats how i approached this. 

Using Radar to Bomb Buildings doesnt seem logical to me because its a Building... i should have Coordinates before hand and for that Reason be able to Bomb them with JDAMS in PP Mode without any Problems. 

 

Funny, if i read that correctly there is not really a way to Bomb Vehicles through the Clouds, i always have to do the last bits visually. Only Exception might be if i dont care (or dont expect) collateral damage and want to destroy everything in that Convoi for example. But then i would use something like Cluster Bombs to kill a larger Group.

But it seems like nobody ever dropped Dumb Boms at a Radar Contact in DCS?

At least nobody can tell me if they experience the same behavior that they Release way too late in Auto Mode and hit something Miles away from the Target.

Real pilots say they didn't use it that much and it's easy to see why.

 

However, in DCS, I find it very useful. Many SP missions aren't written well or give purposely confusing directives to put pressure on you, or assume you're using labels. The radar has helped me many times queue in the TPOD or my eyeballs on to something. The visual acuity in DCS is terrible, so the radar has been a good crutch for me to get eyes-on without having to use labels. 

 

As far as bombing a building, sure, if you have coordinates in DCS, why use the radar? Except in DCS some user missions purposely give you low resolution coordinates, or give imprecise offsets or general directions, forcing you to search for buildings or vehicles. I can't just ask someone for a talk-on or further clarification, or any number of humans interacting with other humans approaches one would probably actually use. Usually you know what the target looks like if you're familiar (which it sounds like you are) with what various objects will look like on the radar format.

 

I'll give you an example of a great use I had for the radar. One of the Serpent's Head 2 missions has you support some ground troops mid-mission. It's not a pre-briefed target. The friendly calling for the strike only gives you coordinates for his position. He tells you '2 buildings across the road'. No cardinal directions are given. You do not have a TPOD equipped. I was able to use that information to quickly locate the 2 buildings in question on the radar map. Friendlies position was the current desg, I could see the road, so slew the designation there, and then I could see two buildings on the corner of the town. Knowing that DCS doesn't process the radar sig of non-placed objects, I figured FTT would track one of the vehicles or the AA gun on the top of one of the buildings. I was dropping Mk83s, so figured that's close enough, and decided FTT would be appropriate here. Before roll in, I did a quick visual (HMCS shows where your desg is) and it was right on target. Rolled in and one pass knocked them out. Realistic? I'm going to guess not. The whole mission wasn't realistic (it was fun though! not knocking it), but the AG radar, in the world this mission created, was the best tool for that job for me in that moment. I would have been flying around forever trying to get oriented and trying to locate tracer fire that for some reason rarely shows up on my machine unless I turn on labels. Understanding what those buildings might look like on the radar, knowing what roads look like on the radar, and being well versed in orienting N/S/E/W on the radar format meant the radar was a viable option for me. If this were real life, I'm guessing (I don't know, not theorycrafting) I would ask for better talk on, more visual clues to walk the eyeballs over. Not an option here because it's a computer game, so, radar it was.

 

I've used it to find convoys and the like. Not to actually bomb them, but find them and get my Mavs or my eyeballs clued in. Works great for that. SEA has worked great for several campaign missions now.

 

I think your training is worth the effort. I've gotten quite good at it and can recognize a host of objects pretty quickly. It's not the all-seeing Eye of Sauron, but I think guys like you and me get that and weren't expecting that. It's a good tool in DCS to learn.

 

BTW I did the same thing you did using JDAMS to practice the accuracy of my designations so as to eliminate delivery errors as the reason for misses, both for the TPOD (that's how I realized the thing sees 'through' buildings) and the radar. I also use the TPOD in conjunction at first to see where the designations landed (that's how I figured out the bug I reported) and how FTT was behaving in sim.

 

Happy flying and I'd love to know how you get on with it moving forward.