Plane fell out the sky. What did I do wrong?

[Draken35]

3 hours ago, vstolmech513 said:

Chapter 10 should be what you are looking for in the 80T-111, although it doesn't give in-depth procedures, it does show diagrams.

Yeah, I saw it... No details unfortunately

 

Couple of videos:

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see any yaw, So I'm guessing roll right with some left rudder perhaps... My landing don't look like those

[netizensmith]

My landings are so far removed from those ^^^ lmao.

[Recluse]

So a little thread resurrection because I didn't want to start a new one when this seemed an appropriate place.

 

I wanted to ask about Harrier Trimming on low speed approach for STOL or Rolling Vertical landings (and pure Vertical as well).  I am used to the Hornet where i can trim to on speed AOA and adjust altitude with throttle and make small lateral corrections without messing up the trim.  In the Harrier, it seems that I cannot seem to get a stable trim position, like getting Witches Hat on the Horizon while manipulating the velocity vector and altitude.  I realize there are a lot more forces at play at slow speeds with nozzle changes, so I don't expect it to be exactly like the Hornet, but hoping there are some best practices.

 

So, I am making an approach at around 60-70 knots with nozzles at ~65 degrees with witches hat near the horizon (maybe a few degrees down) and the velocity vector on the runway or deck.  As I get closer, I rotate the nozzles to about 75-80 degrees to slow further, and try for a hover transition and despite trim and/or stick input the witches hat and the nose pitch wildly up leaving me totally screwed. I'd love to blame my aging Cougar, but I think the problem is the brain behind the HAND and not the Throttle and Stick.

 

As an aside, I wish there was a HOVER STOP for 81-82 degrees. I use the Antenna Elevation rotary on my throttle for Nozzles and have ruined some otherwise good approaches by over rotating the nozzles to 90+ degrees so that instead of a nice touchdown, I get pitched up and start flying/rolling backwards.

 

Like in the attached TRK. Not a pretty approach, but it got there. This was the AV8B Instant Action Carrier Landing mission which starts way too high, hence the initial mad dive to the deck to set up the approach with a slightly better altitude above the deck.

 

 

Av8B Rolling TarawaLanding.trk

Edited April 13, 2021 by Recluse

[Draken35]

I added the Saitek/Logitech throttle quadrant (yesterday!) to control nozzle's

 

It seems to work well... The increase radius of the lever, compare with the friction incr on the throttle that I used before gives good control on the nozzles...Not that I really had an issue with it before. Is the Antenna Elevation rotary in your throttle an axis?

 

You should be going to hover stop before you get close to the deck, where exactly, depends on your speed and the carrier speed. I used to wish for a hover stop to... But the real plane doesn't seem to have it and, well, is not really necessary. After, I get the nozzles to 82. I don't move them and fine tune speed with pitch, no more that 2 or 3 degrees each way.

 

Regarding trimming... That is a good question... My theory is that the reaction control system doesn't trim well, either because of a bug or because it is like in real life, I don't know. My preference is to have some nose down trim before I get to the hover. After, that last trim setup, everything else is done with pitch, roll, rudder and throttle.

[Recluse]

Yes the Antenna Rotary is an axis. I think I will play with Saturation and Curves to see if I can get it to be a little less sensitive.

33 minutes ago, Draken35 said:

You should be going to hover stop before you get close to the deck, where exactly, depends on your speed and the carrier speed. I used to wish for a hover stop to... But the real plane doesn't seem to have it and, well, is not really necessary. After, I get the nozzles to 82. I don't move them and fine tune speed with pitch, no more that 2 or 3 degrees each way.

That's the crux of my issue. When the nozzles rotate forward much past 75 degrees, the pitch goes all over and I cannot get the witch's hat stabilized so that I can use small pitch increments for forward motion or any roll inputs without lots of oscillation. The latter, I think is just PRACTICE but the Witch's Hat stabilization is the key and it is driving me crazy.

 

That's why I (so far) have been making approaches <70 degrees as I seem to be able to stabilize the witch's hat there and use a last minute correction to ease down. TOTALLY not by the book, I realize, but I will work toward that once I get some confidence that I can control things throughout the process.

 

 

[Jackjack171]

58 minutes ago, Draken35 said:

I added the Saitek/Logitech throttle quadrant (yesterday!) to control nozzle's

 

 

 

You should be going to hover stop before you get close to the deck, where exactly, depends on your speed and the carrier speed. I used to wish for a hover stop to... But the real plane doesn't seem to have it and, well, is not really necessary. After, I get the nozzles to 82. I don't move them and fine tune speed with pitch, no more that 2 or 3 degrees each way.

 

 

The AV-8B(VSTOL Shipboard and Landing Signal Officer) NATOPS says One half to three quarters of a mile is when you should go to "Hover Stop". Do you guys have the 80T-111? Downwind you should be at nozzles 50-60. 
Use the TACAN and at 0.5-0.8 DME, go to "Hover Stop"! 

I can try and attach the diagram if you guys don't have it! 

I like your setup as I too use the TMWH. I use the Left throttle for the Nozzles and the antennae axis for Hover stop. I used to use the Antennae axis for the Nozzles.  

[Draken35]

Practice, Practice, Practice...

 

I noticed in the track you posted that you went straight to land... One thing that I found helps me, is to do a proper (or as close as I can) approach pattern. I take off from the Tarawa, do and 180 turn and climb to about 2000 feet and fly to about 3 nm behind the carrier (setting up tacan helps), turn back towards the carrier and do the pattern. Also, doing the take off (hot start at least) gets me in the right might set... I do terrible in air start sorties  

 

I read somewhere (in a Harrier related book, which one escapes my mind now) that " workload kills " ... So have to be all setup before you cross the deck threshold ... You might be tempted to mess with the nozzles , after all, its control is right at your finger tips... Not the case on the real jet, you would have to take your hand off the throttle... No bueno.

 

Stolen from the DCS Harrier Pilots group in face book:

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Jackjack171 said:

The AV-8B(VSTOL Shipboard and Landing Signal Officer) NATOPS says One half to three quarters of a mile is when you should go to "Hover Stop". Do you guys have the 80T-111? Downwind you should be at nozzles 50-60. 
Use the TACAN and at 0.5-0.8 DME, go to "Hover Stop"! 

I can try and attach the diagram if you guys don't have it! 

I like your setup as I too use the TMWH. I use the Left throttle for the Nozzles and the antennae axis for Hover stop. I used to use the Antennae axis for the Nozzles.  

Looks like we crosses post    You are absolutely correct... 

[netizensmith]

I go to 82 degrees about half a mile out, then use witch's hat to control speed and throttle for altitude. Apart from that it's just practice. I have no curves set on my throttle, which I think might help but I'm scared to mess with what I know! If the throttle starts behaving differently I wouldn't know what to do. For newcomers, practice is everything. At first I was trying to remember all the numbers etc. but after a while my hands and feet just operate the throttle, stick and rudders without me even thinking about it. I'm still not great mind. I can't do the fancy line up port side and drift across landing but I can do a full vertical landing at carrier matched speed pretty much every time now. That's from about 2 hours practice today; on Sunday I fell off the end of the Tarawa...

[Jackjack171]

16 minutes ago, netizensmith said:

I go to 82 degrees about half a mile out, then use witch's hat to control speed and throttle for altitude. Apart from that it's just practice. I have no curves set on my throttle, which I think might help but I'm scared to mess with what I know! If the throttle starts behaving differently I wouldn't know what to do. For newcomers, practice is everything. At first I was trying to remember all the numbers etc. but after a while my hands and feet just operate the throttle, stick and rudders without me even thinking about it. I'm still not great mind. I can't do the fancy line up port side and drift across landing but I can do a full vertical landing at carrier matched speed pretty much every time now. That's from about 2 hours practice today; on Sunday I fell off the end of the Tarawa...

Keep trying brother. The standard line up to port and then transition over is self gratifying when you get it right.  Remember to land Spot 7 1/2. Use the elevator to judge where you are. If you can fly formation with the ship, you are halfway there. You'll get it! 

[Recluse]

1 hour ago, netizensmith said:

I go to 82 degrees about half a mile out, then use witch's hat to control speed and throttle for altitude. Apart from that it's just practice. I have no curves set on my throttle, which I think might help but I'm scared to mess with what I know! If the throttle starts behaving differently I wouldn't know what to do. For newcomers, practice is everything. At first I was trying to remember all the numbers etc. but after a while my hands and feet just operate the throttle, stick and rudders without me even thinking about it. I'm still not great mind. I can't do the fancy line up port side and drift across landing but I can do a full vertical landing at carrier matched speed pretty much every time now. That's from about 2 hours practice today; on Sunday I fell off the end of the Tarawa...

 

This was sort of the reason for my post. When I get the nozzles >70% I cannot control the witch's hat.  TRIM doesn't seem to do it, and stick inputs don't seem to act quickly enough. I have tried doing a hover takeoff and trying to just STAY IN ONE SPOT with the witch's hat on the horizon, but it gets away from me every time.  Probably just boils down to practice, but I do not feel like I have any control of attitude in those situations. 

 

BTW, I was talking about a curve for the Nozzle position not the throttle so it isn't so easy to overshoot 82 degrees.

[Jackjack171]

4 minutes ago, Recluse said:

 

This was sort of the reason for my post. When I get the nozzles >70% I cannot control the witch's hat.  TRIM doesn't seem to do it, and stick inputs don't seem to act quickly enough. I have tried doing a hover takeoff and trying to just STAY IN ONE SPOT with the witch's hat on the horizon, but it gets away from me every time.  Probably just boils down to practice, but I do not feel like I have any control of attitude in those situations. 

 

BTW, I was talking about a curve for the Nozzle position not the throttle so it isn't so easy to overshoot 82 degrees.

It sounds like a technique thing. 

Always keep the stick moving and monitor your VV. Try flying the downwind at nozzles 60. Make sure your Water is engaged to give you a little extra thrust. The throttle is very sensitive at this point. Think of it as balancing a needle. The Harrier is about power management  and numbers in the landing phase. Your going to be working! Don't worry about overshooting 82 degrees, use the HUD readout when in VTSOL mode! And most importantly, be patient! I hope that helps

[Draken35]

16 minutes ago, Recluse said:

 

This was sort of the reason for my post. When I get the nozzles >70% I cannot control the witch's hat.  TRIM doesn't seem to do it, and stick inputs don't seem to act quickly enough. I have tried doing a hover takeoff and trying to just STAY IN ONE SPOT with the witch's hat on the horizon, but it gets away from me every time.  Probably just boils down to practice, but I do not feel like I have any control of attitude in those situations. 

 

BTW, I was talking about a curve for the Nozzle position not the throttle so it isn't so easy to overshoot 82 degrees.

How are your VTO's ?  Perhaps practicing them,, and keep the hover will give you the muzzle memory ... 

 

After I set nozzles to 82 I don't mess with trim too much... Only do it if I find myself having to apply "too much" stick to control, usually for pitch. At that point the trim adjust that I do are gross adjustments.

[Jackjack171]

3 hours ago, Recluse said:

 

This was sort of the reason for my post. When I get the nozzles >70% I cannot control the witch's hat.  TRIM doesn't seem to do it, and stick inputs don't seem to act quickly enough. I have tried doing a hover takeoff and trying to just STAY IN ONE SPOT with the witch's hat on the horizon, but it gets away from me every time.  Probably just boils down to practice, but I do not feel like I have any control of attitude in those situations. 

 

BTW, I was talking about a curve for the Nozzle position not the throttle so it isn't so easy to overshoot 82 degrees.

Check out how this guy uses his TRIM. Controls always moving, mostly!

[Draken35]

Great video! 

[netizensmith]

11 hours ago, Recluse said:

 

This was sort of the reason for my post. When I get the nozzles >70% I cannot control the witch's hat.  TRIM doesn't seem to do it, and stick inputs don't seem to act quickly enough. I have tried doing a hover takeoff and trying to just STAY IN ONE SPOT with the witch's hat on the horizon, but it gets away from me every time.  Probably just boils down to practice, but I do not feel like I have any control of attitude in those situations. 

 

BTW, I was talking about a curve for the Nozzle position not the throttle so it isn't so easy to overshoot 82 degrees.

What stick and throttle do you have? There's a zone that Razbam added so that 82 degrees "sticks" for a bit.

Edited April 14, 2021 by netizensmith

[Ryback1973]

Hovering with a harrier is a massive matter of practicing. Same with Helis as the Huey.

My friend flies in VR and he says that it is much easier as you can sense much earlier that the airframe tends in a certain direction, of course giving you faster reaction to counter that movement. I personally fly with trackIR. Without it I would probably never get a hover done.

 

Joystick sensitivity is a big thing. Giving too much curvature/deadzone results in far too much movement of Stick and Rudder for relative small corrections, while too small values result in almost instant Oszillation and loss of control.

 

I have a Thrustmaster Warthog combined with a T16000 Rudder, my curvature of the pitch and roll axis is at 20 and a deadzone of 3. The curvature of my rudder is at 35 and 5!!!. Sounds much but this relatively shitty pedals combined with my absolute lack of sensitivity in my feet/legs make everything below that hard to controll the turns.

 

After about 30 to 40 landings on the Tarawa I am able to bring her down quite on point on a good day.

 

I built a mission with some airshow cones as a slalom course on a runway to practice traversing from hover to controlled forward/backwards flight and strafing with helis and the AV-8. You can of course also use landmarks as a reference. Works pretty good.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Ryback1973

[Recluse]

1 hour ago, netizensmith said:

What stick and throttle do you have? There's a zone that Razbam added so that 82 degrees "sticks" for a bit.

 

I have a Thrustmaster Cougar...but it is aging. I did put Hall sensors in stick and throttle but my stick springs are getting soft and the throttle friction holds are getting sloppy). Also TM RCS pedals.

 

As mentioned, I have the Nozzle positions on the Antenna rotary of the TQS which is a bit sensitive.  I am interested in that potential Sticky Zone!

 

I'll keep practicing.

 

18 minutes ago, Ryback1973 said:

Joystick sensitivity is a big thing. Giving too much curvature/deadzone results in far too much movement of Stick and Rudder for relative small corrections, while too small values result in almost instant Oszillation and loss of control.

 

I have a Thrustmaster Warthog combined with a T16000 Rudder, my curvature of the pitch and roll axis is at 20 and a deadzone of 3. The curvature of my rudder is at 35 and 5!!!. Sounds much but this relatively shitty pedals combined with my absolute lack of sensitivity in my feet/legs make everything below that hard to controll the turns.

 

After about 30 to 40 landings on the Tarawa I am able to bring her down quite on point on a good day.

 

I built a mission with some airshow cones as a slalom course on a runway to practice traversing from hover to controlled forward/backwards flight and strafing with helis and the AV-8. You can of course also use landmarks as a reference. Works pretty good.

 

I agree 100% with everything above!!!  I will play with those settings. My curvature on pitch and roll is around 15 and my deadzone is higher because my stick has a bit of center wobble.

 

Not sure if it was your mission or not, but I have also been using this mission:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3301741/ AV-8B FCLP Trainer - Caucasus (rev 2) for practice, but figured I should get comfortable (!!!!) with the boat. I did see Draken's post to an Assets Pack that more closely recreates the deck for FCLP, but I haven't picked it up yet.

 

 

[netizensmith]

The sticky zone is already there and currently cannot be removed (to my annoyance!). It's there deliberately to help people with controls like yours so if you still have difficulty hitting 82 degrees then it might be time for some new hardware lol.

[Draken35]

4 hours ago, Recluse said:

 

I have a Thrustmaster Cougar...but it is aging. I did put Hall sensors in stick and throttle but my stick springs are getting soft and the throttle friction holds are getting sloppy). Also TM RCS pedals.

 

As mentioned, I have the Nozzle positions on the Antenna rotary of the TQS which is a bit sensitive.  I am interested in that potential Sticky Zone!

 

I'll keep practicing.

 

 

I agree 100% with everything above!!!  I will play with those settings. My curvature on pitch and roll is around 15 and my deadzone is higher because my stick has a bit of center wobble.

 

Not sure if it was your mission or not, but I have also been using this mission:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3301741/ AV-8B FCLP Trainer - Caucasus (rev 2) for practice, but figured I should get comfortable (!!!!) with the boat. I did see Draken's post to an Assets Pack that more closely recreates the deck for FCLP, but I haven't picked it up yet.

 

 

I’m updating my practice area with it... And have other changes.... Was waiting on 2.7 to be out to test and release it... Maybe by Friday, it will be out..

 

I’m really liking this new FCPL surface btw

[Draken35]

@RecluseDo you feel any difference with 2.7?

 

The FM was touched:

• Improved FM
  • Corrected insufficient drag at negative angles of attack.
  • Corrected incorrect thrust being generated when engine is windmilling but no combustion.
  • Improved negative angle of attack dynamics.

I stated to use more trim while hovering/low speed , like in the video that @Jackjack171 posted above... So, I'm not sure if it that, or my imagination , but the Harrier feels more stable during approach to the Tarawa and in hovering... 

 

BTW, the new Tarawa looks great!

[Recluse]

5 minutes ago, Draken35 said:

@RecluseDo you feel any difference with 2.7?

 

Haven't tried it yet, Just took the Hornet up to gawk at the clouds and try the CPL ASL mode. Will get into the Harrier later and report back. Definitely looking forward to the Tarawa re-texture.

[Wisky]

So the Harrier actually has 4 small secondary Nozzles (Nose, Tail and Wing Tips) that are used to pitch and bank during flight slower than 60 knots.

The downside of that is though, that the Nose Nozzle is going to throw up dirt and stones, that might get into your Engine (FOD)

So to tackle that problem at 2° nose down trim the Nose Nozzle is closed, so you cant FOD your own engine while VL or RVL. Of course the harrier has been constructed in a way, that you can still land at 2° nose down trim if you have your Nozzles set right, without FODing your engine. But that means that the pitch will go whack the slower you go and the further back you pull the nozzle lever.

 

i personally just trim everything to 0° during initial and from there control it with the stick.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Wisky