Multi-roles fighters and pilots ?

[CougarFFW04]

Hi everyone,

 

This is not a F18 dedicated question but a rather a multi-roles fighters (F18, F16,..) and pilots question.

I post it here because there is no general discussion room but moderator might want to move it somewhere else if I am wrong...

 

So, as we can experiment thanks to DCS F18 and F16 jets, they have rather complexe and dedicated AA and AG munitions and avionics...

I think it is critical for real life pilots to be very efficient during their mission and I am wondering if pilots flying muti-roles jets are also multi-roles pilots or if they fly exclusively dedicated AA or AG missions ?

 

Thanks

[HammerUK9]

Multi-role. Nothing else is remotely reasonable.

[Tholozor]

Yea, wouldn't make much sense to put someone in a multi-role aircraft without training them to perform both roles.

[DD_Fenrir]

Some wings or squadrons within certain air forces with multi-role types do have a particular specialism they focus on within the air-to-ground purview (IIRC there's a USAF F-16 wing that pays particular attention to the Wild Weasel or SEAD/DEAD role) but that an air to air regime is practiced as regularly as possible to keep pilots current as it is a perishable skill. 

[Swift.]

I think there has been some arguments made by legitimate channels for specialised squadrons doing different missions with the same airframe. But afaik currently ever pilot in an airframe is trained the same.

[Cytarabine]

The Hornet has now on a couple of occasions (both over Iraq and Syria) shown how the ability to swing from one role to another mid mission is important so it wouldn’t make sense to not have crews do both as you can’t swap mid sortie. 
 

That isn’t to say every pilot does every specialised role. 

[plaiskool]

Nowdays, with help of technology and by having easier and easier to fly jets, you can do both, and you can be trained as an multirole Pilot.
Ex: Sweep sortie to push bandit and clean area, switching to air to ground at designated point, drop bombs on Coo, then switch back to Air-to Air and egress.
 

[CougarFFW04]

2 hours ago, plaiskool said:

Nowdays, with help of technology and by having easier and easier to fly jets, you can do both, and you can be trained as an multirole Pilot.
Ex: Sweep sortie to push bandit and clean area, switching to air to ground at designated point, drop bombs on Coo, then switch back to Air-to Air and egress.
 

My question was not to know if it is possible but rather if it is routinely done that a pilot fly a escort or sweep mission one day and a precision strike the other day. I got the impression that altough pilots are trained at everything squadrons (and thus plitots) are more specialised in one task or another. But it also might depends on country doctrine.

 

Thanks

[Dragon1-1]

Squadrons can be skewed toward one role or the other, but this is a minor thing except for things like SEAD/DEAD. Even A-10 pilots train for air to air, because in a combat sortie, you're not the only one who might decide to suddenly turn it into an air to air mission. If you know how to defend yourself in BVR and in a dogfight, you'll also know how to attack, because in many cases the best defense is to turn the tables on the opponent. At most, there will be a difference in relative time spent training for one role or the other.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Dragon1-1

[G.J.S]

4 hours ago, plaiskool said:

Ex: Sweep sortie to push bandit and clean area, switching to air to ground at designated point, drop bombs on Coo, then switch back to Air-to Air and egress.

 

 

 

If you are going after a ground target, then that would take precedence over the ingress sanitization.

 

Realistically - following your example - you would choose an ingress route that should minimize any threat.

You may not completely negate it, but minimize it.

Ideally you will want NO interaction with enemy air/SAM on ingress. That's what a dedicated support flight is for - they can sweep.

Depending on the nature of the ground target, you will want to orientate your bombing run to be from somewhere to the rear of the target - so as you overfly (if dumb bombing) you are already heading in the general direction of home/FEBA.

Upon egress then you can bring up your A2A weapons and mindset, and fight your way out if necessary. 

 

Not much point in getting dirty on your way in, as all you are likely to achieve is a mission fail due to not reaching target for the sake of maybe one or two enemy air.

Edited February 26, 2021 by garyscott

[CougarFFW04]

45 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Squadrons can be skewed toward one role or the other, but this is a minor thing except for things like SEAD/DEAD. Even A-10 pilots train for air to air, because in a combat sortie, you're not the only one who might decide to suddenly turn it into an air to air mission. If you know how to defend yourself in BVR and in a dogfight, you'll also know how to attack, because in many cases the best defense is to turn the tables on the opponent. At most, there will be a difference in relative time spent training for one role or the other.

 

May be I was not clear enough...

So some clarification about my question.

It is clear to me that any pilot must be very efficient in AA engagement as they can be engage any time and they must defend their life...

On the other hand I do not see any reason why a pilot generally flying AA mission would be tasked an AG mission unless extrem and urgent necessity

Don't kwon if I am clear enough.

Edited February 26, 2021 by CougarFFW04

[G.J.S]

7 minutes ago, CougarFFW04 said:

May be I was not clear enough...

So some clarification about my question.

It is clear to me that any pilot must be very efficient in AA engagement as they can be engage any time and they must defend their life...

On the other hand I do not see any reason why a pilot generally flying AA mission would be tasked an AG mission unless extrem and urgent necessity

Don't kwon if I am clear enough.

 

 

Fighter jocks - generally undertake A2A only, very very limited if at all will they tangle with anything on the ground. Its not in their remit.

Multi-rollers - Although A2G is their bread and butter, they will practice limited A2A so as to defend themselves, and make an aggressor honor the nose of any aircraft they may come across - as they wont know if it will NOT light up.

Edited February 26, 2021 by garyscott

[Snappy]

Cougar,

can't remember exactly which one, but I think in one of Fighter Pilot podcast episodes on TOPGUN ( the real one, not the movie) it was mentioned that due

the increasing complexity of the multirole spectrum, the whole true multirole approach (as in each pilot does everything, every role the aircraft can do) might no

longer be feasible and that squadrons in the future may focus again on certain roles only.

But if I understood correctly it was more of a future lookout/possibilty nothing definitive yet.

 

Of course I also don't know, if that would imply  that a squadron will for example, exclusively train/do  Air2Air or whether it means Air2Air will be the main thing for them , but they will still train to a lesser degree A2G or SEAD for example and stay current in those areas too.

Regards,

Snappy

Edited February 26, 2021 by Snappy

[Brass2-1]

Mover/CW Lemoine has explained a few times that his squadron (USAF Viper) trained in blocks-a period of A-G focus, moving to A-A, possibly SEAD as well-he might even show up in this thread to confirm. 
 

USAF absolutely has Vipers at Shaw AFB that specialize in SEAD, but these same jets also flew CAS and strike missions in Syria quite recently. 
 

OP, I think what may bring more clarity is the big picture of mission planning. 
Let’s propose that a USN carrier needs to strike a target in a potentially non-permissive environment. A modern carrier air wing are nearly all Super Hornets (and Growlers), with all multirole trained crews (even Growlers train for BFM). 
One or more elements of the strike will be dedicated for the bomb/missile attack, but will also carry AAM’s for defense. 

Another element(s) will be a fighter sweep to guard the airspace that the A-G group will be working in. 

Still another group, likely including or consisting of Growler electronic warfare jets may be functioning in a SEAD/DEAD role to ensure safe passage of the ground attack element. 

 

Across these crews, with the exception of the Growlers, training will

be very much the same from jet to

jet-but their roles within this specific mission are specialized. These roles may not apply on another mission with similar circumstances. 
 

Finally there is the fact that in war the enemy gets a vote, and the best laid plans can be forced to

change rapidly. The Growlers, while dedicated jamming/EW aircraft, have AMRAAMs for self protection. The ground attack element in our scenario above will be lightly armed with AAM’s in case things go awry. 
 

I hope this makes a bit more sense, happy flying.