F-15E

[upyr1]

You're horribly, horribly wrong about it being something that only needs minor tuning ;)

Iwas sugesting that a third party add on might be good enough that ED would sugest only a few minor touches to tune it up so it meet theres standards- not that it would take a few minor touches from the F-15C modle.

[Kula66]

You're talking about Lockon aren't you? To my knowledge those missiles haven't been modeled to DCS level yet...

 

We've been promised A2A combat at some point in the future 1, 2, 3 years ... I don't think the info is going to be declassified anytime soon!

 

So there will be guess work in DCS ... but provided it's believable to the majority of us (who will never get into a fighter let alone fly one) - then fine. Just don't go believing everything in DCS will by 100% true ...

[GGTharos]

Yes, but hopefully those guesses will be better. We already know kinematics will be superior, which is a quarter of the battle.

[Kula66]

Yes, but hopefully those guesses will be better. We already know kinematics will be superior, which is a quarter of the battle.

 

I'm sure they will be GGT, plus all the experience ED gained from what happened in LO ...

[Yellonet]

We've been promised A2A combat at some point in the future 1, 2, 3 years ... I don't think the info is going to be declassified anytime soon!

 

So there will be guess work in DCS ... but provided it's believable to the majority of us (who will never get into a fighter let alone fly one) - then fine. Just don't go believing everything in DCS will by 100% true ...

Not declassified perhaps, but with a good physics engine and if they can get specifications of the missiles they should behave very much like the real thing.

 

What type of info can ED get a hold of anyway?

 

Burn time, speed, max G in manuevers and such parameters in combination with a good physics engine would make the flight of the weapon realistic, WAFM check!

Then there's how the missile get's information about it's target and how it goes about tracking it, this information is likely a bit harder to come by but might be in reach for ED(?), with this we should be able to get Advanced Target Aquisition and Tracking Model (ATATM), tossing this into the sim would probably make the missiles behave very close to the real things.

Information such as radar frequencies and such in-depth technical details is likely to be classified (?) but not really necessary to create a simulated weapon.

 

What is needed is basic specifications such as flight parameters, detection range, scanning and tracking data and such if ED has that it is possible to calculate what the missile will do in a certain situation, exactly how and why it does these things is actually irrelevant for the sim.

[GGTharos]

Burn time,

 

Classified

 

speed,

 

Classified

 

max G

 

Classified ...

 

Some of those physical characteristics can be reasonably guessed at (eg. burn time and perhaps speed), max G cannot, because it is a structural airframe limitation. Also g available at a given speed will not be accurate.

 

 

exactly how and why it does these things is actually irrelevant for the sim.

 

I disagree. Do you know what was cited a probable cause of the Patriot friendly fire incidents?

Barring lack of adequate human supervision (training or negligence issue) and possible IFF equipment issues, the multiple patriot batteries deployed in the gulf war would happily cause electro-magnetic interferece problems for each other every now and then (hey, they're all operating in the same frequency band!), designating an incoming aircraft as say, an incoming ARM.

 

It is VERY important to understand how and why a weapons does things in order to model it with some reasonable fidelity. It is important in fact to understand things WELL.

Anyone playing LOFC should be well aware of this ;)

[Yellonet]

Classified

 

 

 

Classified

 

 

 

Classified ...

 

Some of those physical characteristics can be reasonably guessed at (eg. burn time and perhaps speed), max G cannot, because it is a structural airframe limitation. Also g available at a given speed will not be accurate.

 

 

 

 

I disagree. Do you know what was cited a probable cause of the Patriot friendly fire incidents?

Barring lack of adequate human supervision (training or negligence issue) and possible IFF equipment issues, the multiple patriot batteries deployed in the gulf war would happily cause electro-magnetic interferece problems for each other every now and then (hey, they're all operating in the same frequency band!), designating an incoming aircraft as say, an incoming ARM.

 

It is VERY important to understand how and why a weapons does things in order to model it with some reasonable fidelity. It is important in fact to understand things WELL.

Anyone playing LOFC should be well aware of this ;)

So how are ED going to create the missiles without guessing? :huh: Anyways, there's lots of countries that have the amraam, maybe some of this data could be acquired...

 

And as to your example with the Patriots, well, we know that this could happen and approximately how it happened so that should be enough to model it decently well, although something like that seems to be low on the to-do list. There's no real EM activity in the sim after all, only an aproximation of the results... or have I completely misunderstood it? :noexpression:

Modeling everthing down to real radio waves seems impossible, yes I know there's radio and realistic radar model coming in DCS but I'm guessing that it isn't modeled down to the actual energy waves bouncing all over the place.

[amalahama]

max G cannot, because it is a structural airframe limitation

 

NASTRAN anyone?

 

Regards!

[GGTharos]

So how are ED going to create the missiles without guessing? :huh: Anyways, there's lots of countries that have the amraam, maybe some of this data could be acquired...

 

Some of this data has been acquired ... for AIM-120A.

 

And as to your example with the Patriots, well, we know that this could happen and approximately how it happened so that should be enough to model it decently well, although something like that seems to be low on the to-do list.

 

Wrong! :) We know that it happened and why. We don't know how often. Similarly, we don't know ECM/ECCM effectiveness, nor for example, how many false positives/spurious contacts/mis-identifications a radar or RWR gets per minute, etc etc.

 

There's no real EM activity in the sim after all, only an aproximation of the results... or have I completely misunderstood it? :noexpression:

Modeling everthing down to real radio waves seems impossible, yes I know there's radio and realistic radar model coming in DCS but I'm guessing that it isn't modeled down to the actual energy waves bouncing all over the place.

 

You understood it correctly. You don't want to make a 3D radio-rendering app, it won't give you the answers you NEED anyway, because you don't know how each aircraft's radar would process that information.

What you need is ranges, probabilities, etc etc.

And all of that stuff is classified.

 

So, to conclude, there is a LOT of stuff that has to be 'guessed at'.

 

The best we have for example is anecdotal evidence that MiG-29A radars suck compared to F-15C radars. We even have descriptions of how they compare; but that doesn't really paint the entire picture.

 

MiG-29A radars suck at search, but their purpose was to deliver weapons: Once locked on, they behave quite a bit better.

 

The more modern the fighter you model, the less such information you can acquire.

[SUBS17]

XSi is planning on doing an F-15E at some stage after the 1st release.:music_whistling:. F15E was certainly a fun jet to fly in Janes F/A-18.

[Yellonet]

The best we have for example is anecdotal evidence that MiG-29A radars suck compared to F-15C radars. We even have descriptions of how they compare; but that doesn't really paint the entire picture.

 

MiG-29A radars suck at search, but their purpose was to deliver weapons: Once locked on, they behave quite a bit better.

 

The more modern the fighter you model, the less such information you can acquire.

Yay! That sure sounds great, because "suck compared to" is such an exact and scientific measurement of relative capabilities isn't it.:doh: :megalol:

 

TBH, I'm a bit disappointed right now, on some level I thought that ED would have access to a bit more info than the rest of us and that the weapons in DCS would actually be head and shoulders above Lomac weapons, not just in the flight department.

Oh well, I guess at least we'll all be flying realistically... :cry:

[amalahama]

XSi is planning on doing an F-15E at some stage after the 1st release.:music_whistling:.

 

Yeah, In 2050 ED will have more access to F-15E senstive information as well :D

 

Regards!!

[GGTharos]

Yay! That sure sounds great, because "suck compared to" is such an exact and scientific measurement of relative capabilities isn't it.:doh: :megalol:

 

Exactly ... mind you, knowledge thereof is a bit more in depth than what I have indicated - but the point is, classifies is still classified :)

 

TBH, I'm a bit disappointed right now,

 

You shouldn't be,

 

on some level I thought that ED would have access to a bit more info than the rest of us and that the weapons in DCS would actually be head and shoulders above Lomac weapons, not just in the flight department.

Oh well, I guess at least we'll all be flying realistically... :cry:

 

Because ED DOES have more access. What I am trying to say is, don't expect miracles. You will be able to see how this stuff works in GENERAL, but you probably wouldn't be able to tell from a sim why one aircraft can clobber another in BVR when it comes down to electronic warfare specifically. I could be wrong though ;)

 

So, to recap; we might not see the most interesting of AMRAAM path-shaping algorithms of countermeasure rejection algorithms, or ECCM, or perhaps Beryoza will still work perfectly against it.

 

Similarly, you might not experience the RWR issues that a pre-1996 F-15C might, and so on and so forth.

 

My point is quite simply, that in the arena of air to air combat, you will get someone's interpretation of how it looks, but not how the real thing really is. It might get close - and as close as possible is ED's goal.

[Yellonet]

You shouldn't be,

I'll get over it :D

 

 

 

Because ED DOES have more access. What I am trying to say is, don't expect miracles. You will be able to see how this stuff works in GENERAL, but you probably wouldn't be able to tell from a sim why one aircraft can clobber another in BVR when it comes down to electronic warfare specifically. I could be wrong though ;)

 

So, to recap; we might not see the most interesting of AMRAAM path-shaping algorithms of countermeasure rejection algorithms, or ECCM, or perhaps Beryoza will still work perfectly against it.

 

Similarly, you might not experience the RWR issues that a pre-1996 F-15C might, and so on and so forth.

 

My point is quite simply, that in the arena of air to air combat, you will get someone's interpretation of how it looks, but not how the real thing really is. It might get close - and as close as possible is ED's goal.

That's quite reassuring actually :)

Not that I ever was any good in A2A anyway :music_whistling: :joystick:

[v1per]

Is it just me or is there an F-15E model/mod currently in the works?

 

Try www.lockonfiles.com Thank you, have a nice day.:thumbup:

[SUBS17]

Yeah, In 2050 ED will have more access to F-15E senstive information as well :D

 

Regards!!

 

Well at least someone is keen on doing a sim that has flyable F/A-18s and F-15Es. I think it'll be out alot sooner than 2050 though I suppose having real Eagle pilots helps though.

[upyr1]

since there is a add on development pack it may be 2010 and produced as an add on to DCS

[Guest CaliCheese]

I have no doubt that it takes alot of work to make one of these sims, but to say that something isn't possible to make because you don't have enough info available isn't really a valid answer... guess!!!

 

It's bad business for ED to be saying they won't make a particular model, that's telling all these other companies what they can do to be successful.

Before anything else ED is in the Business to make money off flight sims, If they don't make the money= no sim. What ED should be saying is "We want to model an F-15E and we may release one in the future." Not we don't have time, or a manual, or priority.

 

When XSI comes out with Fighter Ops and people are flying their F-15E (that let's just say is a 70% guess model) having one good ol' time because now they can have a live person as their WSO and can work as a team etc... Simmers are extatic that someone has finally come out with a sim where this is possible and are buying the game like theres no tomorrow and XSI is reeling in the bucks (now they can make more planes).

 

What's ED going to say when asked why they didn't take advantage of this? "well... um... we didn't have a manual..." or "It was to hard..."

 

Let's just say for a moment ED makes an F-15E model that was made off of the teams best guesses. If someone plays it and says " Um... the doppler effect of my radar isn't consistent with the jets actual frequency when in a 7.5g turn while engaging a mig-29 that is 85 degree's off my nose..."

This is when you reply " That may be true but I know what it's like to be with a woman!"

 

90% of simmers will never operate a real military aircraft let alone ever know one's full potential, 5% are real hardcore and build their own cockpits and they might know a little more info than the average simmer, the last 5% are the real military pilots who aren't going to care a whole lot because they fly the real thing.

 

Im sure at ED they have someone who is really good a public relations, make a model of an aircraft (we'll use the F-15E example again) to the best of your ability with the info you do know and then the rest that you guessed. Then when you get to your beta test phase make sure some of your testers are real f-15E pilots. Give a copy to your PR person and have them see if they can set up something to meet with some pilots of an F-15E squadron and say "Hey guys, we are making this new sim of the F-15E and we would like your input on what we've some up with so far." Im sure they'd be happy to do it. Give them each a survey they can fill out after they've tried it with questions like "what did you think about the flight characteristics?", "Radar?", "ECM?" etc. If they leave it blank you either got it right or it's classified, but I think most would give you a slew of info. If most of them say "Man this is one of the most realistic f-15 sims ive flown!" or " Wow this sim is great!" then it would be pretty safe to say that the average joe would probably enjoy the sim.

 

Bottom line is "guess", forget about the nit picking details.

 

Im thrilled for black shark though, looks like a great sim.

[Weta43]

Bottom line is "guess", forget about the nit picking details

 

You've missed the whole point of DCS - accuracy & fidelity in simulation - & you don't get these things through guessing.

 

ED have identified a market niche they want to occupy, and for this "near enough is good enough" just isn't

[Kula66]

Weta,

With respect, it is you who have missed the point - in this field, there will always be guessing, randomness and approximation! Tons of stuff is classified (and somestuff will always be) and the power of our systems IS finite (you can't model it all).

 

Even the pilot of a KA-50 has no idea what will happen in certain circumstances so how can ED model it gaurenteed 100% accurate? eg. The damage effects of an AMRAAM on the a/c? Lots of randomness and guesswork ...

 

And as long as it 'feels' right and has no obvious gaffs that's good enough for this armchair ace!

[RedTiger]

I have no doubt that it takes alot of work to make one of these sims, but to say that something isn't possible to make because you don't have enough info available isn't really a valid answer... guess!!!

 

Actually, thats a very valid answer. Are you familiar with the process of restoring a classic car? A true restoration job takes painstaking research and documentation. You want to get it restored EXACTLY as it once was. Think of DCS like this and you may understand it better. Major guess work excludes it from being done at the level they're interested in.

 

It's bad business for ED to be saying they won't make a particular model, that's telling all these other companies what they can do to be successful.

Before anything else ED is in the Business to make money off flight sims, If they don't make the money= no sim. What ED should be saying is "We want to model an F-15E and we may release one in the future." Not we don't have time, or a manual, or priority.

 

When XSI comes out with Fighter Ops and people are flying their F-15E (that let's just say is a 70% guess model) having one good ol' time because now they can have a live person as their WSO and can work as a team etc... Simmers are extatic that someone has finally come out with a sim where this is possible and are buying the game like theres no tomorrow and XSI is reeling in the bucks (now they can make more planes).

 

What's ED going to say when asked why they didn't take advantage of this? "well... um... we didn't have a manual..." or "It was to hard...".

 

*snip*

 

Before you can make a call on whats bad business, you have to understand that ED will be using their commercial sims as a portfolio for military clients. FO can have a 70% model of the F-15E. Just don't expect the USAF, IAF, or JASDF to be impressed with it and award XSI a contract. ;)

 

I don't mean to not respond to the rest, but this aspect pretty much sums up why the "armchair ace" or the "90% of us have never flown a military aircraft" arguments don't apply.

 

You have a point, but it doesn't really apply to this line of sims, as I understand it. Getting it half right and guessing the rest may make a good flight sim for us, but it just isn't the goal of DCS.

[Duke49th]

Weta,

With respect, it is you who have missed the point - in this field, there will always be guessing, randomness and approximation! Tons of stuff is classified (and somestuff will always be) and the power of our systems IS finite (you can't model it all).

 

 

And that's why the F15 E won't come out. It is classified. And as Wags already said, ED will only bring out content that is non-classified.

 

And this is a really good Idea:thumbup:

 

There are enough Aircraft's out there, which are not classified.

 

You want the E-model? Go on and make it yourself when ED brings out the tools.

Don't know how the Radar is exactly working? Or the CMS? Or the the correct length of the wings.? Or.....

:D

They also don't. And then you have an Aircraft which is not 99% correct simulated, you will get a 80% correct simulated Aircraft.

 

 

Even the pilot of a KA-50 has no idea what will happen in certain circumstances so how can ED model it gaurenteed 100% accurate?

 

They never said 100%!! But as close as it gets, means no classified stuff!

 

 

ED is making the right choise.:thumbup:

 

 

 

(Sorry for my crappy english:music_whistling:)

 

edit: I want the EF2000. Any spy here?:P

Edited August 26, 2008 by Duke49th

[arneh]

There are enough Aircraft's out there, which are not classified.

 

 

It's not as black and white that you have classified aircraft and non-classified aircraft (if you want to take it litterally a classified aircraft would be an aircraft which existence is secret, like the F-117 used to be).

 

There is usually some or more systems in the aircraft which are classified. Hardly any modern combat aircraft contains no classified information. IFF, jammers and radars are among the systems commonly classified (at least in part). And I'm convinced most of the planes ED already have planned to make include some such classified systems.

 

So I guess it's more of a grey area, they want to have as much public information as possible, and as little unknown (classified) as possible. But if they ruled out every plane which contains some classified information then there wouldn't be many modern planes to model, so they will have to be a little less strict than that ;)

[RedTiger]

But if they ruled out every plane which contains some classified information then there wouldn't be many modern planes to model, so they will have to be a little less strict than that ;)

 

No they don't have to and probably won't. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about what they are trying to accomplish. If you want less accuracy in favor of more aircraft, look elsewhere. DCS may not be for you. :dunno:

 

Look at my signature. All of those aircraft are not just being considered for DCS modules, all of them are in some state of actually being developed. There is at least 3, the Hind, the A-10A and the A-10C, that are not on my list that are also being developed. Do the math. How many years of sim playing do those 5 aircraft at DCS mean for you? Do you even know where you'll be or what you'll be doing that far in the future? If things turn out to be as high quality and complexity as they claim, there won't be any aircraft shortage for a very long time. :)

[upyr1]

You've missed the whole point of DCS - accuracy & fidelity in simulation - & you don't get these things through guessing. ED have identified a market niche they want to occupy, and for this "near enough is good enough" just isn't

Eagle dynamics is trying to be as accurate as you can get with out violating anyone's national securtiy- so there will be some degree of guess work on the electronics since things like radar and ECM will be classified. You can get old F-15E flight manuals

http://www.eflightmanuals.com/search/searchResults.asp?usersearch=1088-PCR9

http://www.esscoaircraft.com/product_p/9558.htm

So the the next questions any one needs to ask would be-

1. what upgrades have the F-15 fleet been through since 1990?

2. have any of these drasticly changed the cockpit?

3. can you get a declassified version of the new manuals or at least the declassified version of the upgrads?

I am not convinced that every sytem on the blackshark will be modled 100% correctly- as I just can't see the Russian millitary releasing every detail about their newest chopper.