reported VR Controllers: Lost laser pointer and bindings

[StevanJ]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

Most of the bindings are there.

 

Trigger = Left Click

Trigger (CCW) = Right Click / Middle click to drag knobs around by moving hand.

Up = Right click

Down = Left click

Right = Rotate right

Left = Rotate left

X/Y = Center VR view

A/B = Zoom view

(don't really recall which one was which as I don't even remember which side had which without looking a photo, and don't remember which button did what)

Grip HOLD = Grab virtual controls as long as hold down.

 

So if something that has changed is possible the trigger acting as LMB when grabbing the stick. I don't recall how it worked back in the day when the virtual controllers gained capability to grab these as I don't use this unrealistic feature (nice to have if traveling with a laptop and VR to fly a simple aircraft like WW2 birds that don't have more than one button in throttle or stick). But that I know that forever you have not had change to bind these buttons and triggers in touch controllers properly in game, what has been wishlist to be changed. 

 

One can try to use a DirectInput-to-XInput Wrappers to get things working by the button part by binding them to keyboard etc.

Dolphin VR https://dolphinvr.wordpress.com/

Auto_Oculus_Touch https://github.com/rajetic/auto_oculus_touch/releases

XOutput https://github.com/csutorasa/XOutput

XBOX 360 Controller Emulator https://www.x360ce.com/

 

The Oculus Touch Controllers should be a DirectInput devices, so you should be able read those inputs and convert them to XInput for standard DirectX inputs. 

 

I might try those later today as I am very interested to get more out of them, but I want the hands move in space as now. 

Personally for me the ultimate is still that no lasers, no crosshairs. Get the virtual hand positioned properly for a real hand and then get each of button/switch etc be triggered only once every X milliseconds (like touch input is registered for same button/switch only once every 200-2000 milliseconds instead like now with as fast and long as finger is on the button/switch).

No, the binding is a bug- Ive had this discussion before when the A10C broke in the last update, the pointer/trigger is done within the VR part of the API.
At least the trigger and zoom button should be there, so right now- Its just broke.
Even the guys in VR who use a HOTAS have mentioned the loss of binds- especially those with a rift s who rely on zoom to see the gauges.

 

54 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Well, the animation for the virtual hand to grab the switch is fancy, but it as well feels little off. And in VTOL VR (one of my favorite VR games, so would have hoped to see it in standalone for Quest 2.... Think about playing VTOL VR where ever just with Quest 2.... Oh boy) the cockpit is designed by the VR controllers. Large buttons, well separated big switches and levers. 

In a real aircraft switches, buttons and levers are placed so that you manipulate them with thumb or you just flip with finger. Like example the MiG-21Bis sidepanel switches are guarded each individually so that you can lay your hand on the panel to feel where your hand is and flip switch up / down with thumb, and then glance that did you flip the proper one and back to looking outside. The landing gear is like you don't look at it, you just get your hand on it and feel it and you operate it in all aircraft. The UFC is such that you place hand to side of it and use thumb to operate it while hand is supported on side.

 

Having a VR hand to perform a "pinch" like in VTOL VR on each widget and knob in the DS could look challenging. It could be a good solution but we would need the virtual hand to go through everything else than these now. I would like to try it as it could be good response but right now it is easy to point virtual hand index finger on thing and get it operated. Problem is that once you do so, the hand continues sending input and widget will keep reacting to input as fast as it can. So you can see switches jumping back and forth at rapid speed etc. 

 

 

That was the old setting. I don't want the beam at all. Just like we have it now. No beam as it is distracting. Just the glove as now is amazing. This means as well that now the invisible beam as it still exist would be visible, you can get it when you point to other side of cockpit in Mi-8MTv2 I noticed... So it seems to be designed so that if you can reach at something the beam is invisible, but if you point something you can't reach, then it is visible!.

 

But I don't want whole beam visible or its function. I want option to have it gone.  So options for VR settings for virtual hands:

 

1) Dynamic laser beam (current) / constant laser beam (old) / no laser beam.

2) On/Off for a capability operate widgets from further distance than touching finger (the end of the laser beam)

3) laser beam visible all the time / only when grip hold down.

 

 

 

I think the canopy opening and ejection seat handles etc should require a button click. Not touching. A UFC panel should work with just touching, but you accidentally place hand on ejection seat that's top of you are sitting and BOOM, you are out. Nope, it is requirement to do three times clicking (and should be in all aircraft, as only few does it. Best way to get ejected...). 

 

 

Totally agree. On/Off setting for that too.

 

 

There was the bug report as well about grabbing those controls even when they were hidden, needs checking that is it still a thing or is it gone. As it was bad when you accidentally moved hand through empty space and suddenly pushed throttle to idle or stick fully to one direction. If invisible = no touch reaction. 

 

 

Actually started to check out for some of the solutions for binding the Touch Controllers and at least this was interesting in one of them:

 

AutoOculusTouch can give you:
- index and hand triggers of a Touch, as floats from 0.0 to 1.0.
- thumbstick axes as floats from -1.0 to 1.0.
- all Touch, Remote and XBox buttons (except the Oculus Home button and remote volume buttons).
- all Touch capacitive sensors.
- all Touch capacitive gestures (index pointing and thumbs up for either hand).
- Pitch, Roll and Yaw of both touch controllers and headset in degrees.
- Position of both touch controllers and headset in metres.
- Set continuous or limited time vibration effects of different frequencies and amplitudes on either touch controller.

 

vJoy Support
Normally AutoHotKey can only generate keyboard and mouse events.
vJoy is a driver that emulates one or more virtual joysticks with configurable features. AutoOculusTouch can now send analog axis and digital button values to vJoy. This lets you use Touch (or the remote) as a gamepad in games that support DirectInput.
Note: while most of the controls match an XBox controller, it technically isn't one. Any game that uses XInput directly can't see vJoy. Only DirectInput games will work here.

 

I know you dont want the pointer, but until they adjust that part of the game, and include it in the settings (which i feel is a long way off) the influx of new and usual touch control players are stuck with no way to play warbirds without having a hand on the keyboard.
AutoOculusTouch works, but its ineffective as a long term solution and we shouldnt have to rely on 3rd party software, as a workaround for part of the game thats now broken and now needs fixing.

While you had issues with the pointer, we now have even more issues with the touch controls, and the loss of bindings and pointer misdirection carries alot more weight.

I never had an issue with mis-grabbing any controls in a year of playing this game until 2.7.
And im a big advocate for getting rid of the HOTAS and moving to touch controls. Yet because of the way the pointer has moved direction, and how uncomfortable and unintuitive it is, im gonna have to dust off my G940 when i get home.

 

5 hours ago, Eldur said:

Noticed this as well, as mentioned here. Needs to be addressed.

 

For the ones who would rather not have the beam/pointer, basically the ones who don't have obstacles around and prefer to hit the switches directly, I'd suggest the approach that VTOL VR did. Get the finger to the thing. Press and hold trigger to grab it and then move the controller accordingly to manipulate, like up/down, left/right, fwd/back or even rotate. And then release trigger to stop interacting. Works darn well in that other sim. And BTW, that can even work together with the old style, as the LMB was/is on the thumbstick already.

 

Also, with the correct setting checked, the beam/pointer would only be visible with the grip held down. That at least prevents some unwanted actions (but the HMD still is able to trigger that if you bury your nose in a switch or keypad), but adding the interactivity as described above would even remove those unwanted canopy pops and other switch throws when you try to point at something while getting close to some other trigger zones. In the end, everything should be options, so everyone can set it to their likings, and we all win.

 

Also, we need to be able to disable the stick and throttle grip interactions. Those of us who fly with a HOTAS, but use the controllers for switchology would be happy about that. The A-4E-C has the problem that there is a grip zone for the stick to the right of the actual thing and I often ended up grabbing (and therefor pulling it completely to the right wall and pushing a good bit forward at the same time) it unintentionally when I wanted to switch things on the armament panel. Also had that a few times in the Viper, but it wasn't as often.

Yeah, that link is spot on. The new direction of the pointer is off, in stead of it pointing from the end of the finger, it now points from the fingerprint.
Its so incredibly unintuitive to push basic switches.
Even turning on the 'rocker' in the Mi8 for the weapons now takes me a 'dramatic' amount longer as i cant see what im pointing at now.
An example is the pylon select, because the hand now covers the point' i have to click and hold and wait for 3 seconds until i start seeing the cross, before trying to select which pylon i want.
What was once an intuitive point and click, is now something else much more user unfriendly.

Spending some time in the FA18, Ive never had such a bad time trying to reach and push the flir switch.
All the buttons that i would click with my right hand on the left panel, (lights, gear and flaps) are really awkward.

[Fri13]

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

No, the binding is a bug- Ive had this discussion before when the A10C broke in the last update, the pointer/trigger is done within the VR part of the API.
At least the trigger and zoom button should be there, so right now- Its just broke.
Even the guys in VR who use a HOTAS have mentioned the loss of binds- especially those with a rift s who rely on zoom to see the gauges.

 

I can zoom in and out. By pressing the right controller button. Nothing has changed there. 

Left controller has Reset VR View and End Game menu, and right controller has Zoom and something I don't recall (maybe nothing). 

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

I know you dont want the pointer, but until they adjust that part of the game, and include it in the settings (which i feel is a long way off) the influx of new and usual touch control players are stuck with no way to play warbirds without having a hand on the keyboard.

 

When I was rebinding the Touch Controllers with Vjoy, the DCS World gave listed conflicting bindings for installed modules (I have only three installed right now as I made full new install, maybe that is why I don't have problems you explain) like Y was a trim button and trigger was the ICS and grip was machineguns. 

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

AutoOculusTouch works, but its ineffective as a long term solution and we shouldnt have to rely on 3rd party software, as a workaround for part of the game thats now broken and now needs fixing.

 

How to get it working around the problems I faced? I tried to seek such app back in the day when the Touch Controllers came supported as virtual hands only (no buttons or anything) and had lost interest to find solution to it until today came cross with it. It would be nice to get the VR overriding the binded functions. 

 

But you are correct that we should not be required use any third party software for input devices. All should be read directly from DCS World (common devices) and bindable as we want.

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

While you had issues with the pointer, we now have even more issues with the touch controls, and the loss of bindings and pointer misdirection carries alot more weight.

 

They are all equal. As ED needs to do it all instead just one part or a another. Add the suggested features and configuration options. 

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

I never had an issue with mis-grabbing any controls in a year of playing this game until 2.7.

 

There are bug reports about that. Even when a controls are invisible you grab them. They are years old now. 

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

And im a big advocate for getting rid of the HOTAS and moving to touch controls. Yet because of the way the pointer has moved direction, and how uncomfortable and unintuitive it is, im gonna have to dust off my G940 when i get home.

 

All problems needs to be solved, not just one or another. And solution is to add options so everyone can get happy. 

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Yeah, that link is spot on. The new direction of the pointer is off, in stead of it pointing from the end of the finger, it now points from the fingerprint.
Its so incredibly unintuitive to push basic switches.

 

It actually makes more sense to press a UFC buttons and such as now you can do it more with a finger than tip of the finger. Just like if you need to press a button, you don't use a finger tip but the fingerprint part. 

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Spending some time in the FA18, Ive never had such a bad time trying to reach and push the flir switch.

 

Again, all switches and buttons are terrible as long the input is repeated as long you are touching the switch/button. You can do a simple easy LTD/R flip as it keeps flipping back and worth as long you have finger touching it. That is what is forcing to use a idiotic "swipe" techniques and trying to avoid touching anything else, or just use a laser pointer and mini-stick Up/Down to do the work. 

Simple fix is that delay setting that once button has just been operated wait X milliseconds before it can be operated again. 

 

13 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

All the buttons that i would click with my right hand on the left panel, (lights, gear and flaps) are really awkward.

 

You are not suppose to use your right hand to operate left panel. You use left hand to operate left panel and right hand to operate right panel.

 

[StevanJ]

22 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

I can zoom in and out. By pressing the right controller button. Nothing has changed there. 

Left controller has Reset VR View and End Game menu, and right controller has Zoom and something I don't recall (maybe nothing). 

I appreciate the help- but i need a solid solution not a workaround or quick fix..
This is effecting this beautiful game for me.
Its made my game worse in the highlight of awesome new clouds.

 

Jump in a warbird.
Now without letting go of the stick and throttle, shoot down a bandit you cant see on the edge of visual range.

Where as before we could zoom-scan, and shoot.
Now we have to let go of the controls to do either which works against the very thing you said.
 

Touch Controllers with Vjoy- Yeah, thats why i mean. They arent a long term solution.
As for 'weight from the issue', i think if we'd had a recent post with issues from the pointer id understand. But from a search, i cant find anything from December 9, 2018 onwards.
They are years old, the issue doesnt seem to be recorded. I think people understood that the VR controllers werent going away, and lived with them.
Now because of the changes we have larger problems, hence why people are reporting their dismay in this post.

There isnt a real quick solve for these issues and the 'low hanging fruit' is to enable users to revert back to the old way through a switch in the options as youve said.
 

34 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

It actually makes more sense to press a UFC buttons and such as now you can do it more with a finger than tip of the finger. Just like if you need to press a button, you don't use a finger tip but the fingerprint part. 

But now, im using the flat of my finger to place my finger onto MFD buttons, and the lower switches, instead of just 'pushing them' and because of the new larger glove theres a conflict in the way im able to use the control effectively.



Green was the old pointer.

Red is the new.
You can see this from being in the game, pointing at something and then pressing the menu button in the oculus, the pointer is WAY out not just a little bit.
Its almost 40 degrees in the wrong direction which is really confusing.

 

42 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

Again, all switches and buttons are terrible as long the input is repeated as long you are touching the switch/button. You can do a simple easy LTD/R flip as it keeps flipping back and worth as long you have finger touching it. That is what is forcing to use a idiotic "swipe" techniques and trying to avoid touching anything else, or just use a laser pointer and mini-stick Up/Down to do the work. 

Ive never experienced any switch being terrible until now.
And the LTD/R is now less accessible now because of the point control.
The laser pointer now points in the wrong direction which is what weve been saying. Its bugged, hence which is why weve lost all our binds.
 

43 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

You are not suppose to use your right hand to operate left panel. You use left hand to operate left panel and right hand to operate right panel.

Yes, this is correct. But if youre like me, and use the Touch Controls exclusively to fly while working away on a laptop -when youre flying the FA18/F16 etc, your left hand remains on the keyboard to activate and control the TGP, and release weapons. So you become used to operating and using the systems with your right hand through obligation, its a burden- but its still intuitive..
When the day comes that the VR controls become full fidelity and we can control the TGP and weapon release with them, ill go back to using both hands.
But were at least 5 years away.

Im limited by the amount of binds ED gives us on the touch controls. I dont mind the just the trigger, that allows me to fly WW2 as real as it gets, but i need that pointer in the right direction too.
Before we had some binds, Now we have none. Its bugged.

If im in a FW190d, then my muscle memory for that is normal but now not so- since the changes.
So where as before we had a workaround that was highly intuitive, now we have broken controls and modules that we cant operate without More workarounds which is highly unintuitive, hence why we are trying to report it as bugged.
VR controls have never been this unintuitive.

@BIGNEWY Is there anychance of some feedback towards this complaint/bug-report? What do the Devs say about the new pointer and key binds?

[BIGNEWY]

I have reported the issues to the team 

 

thanks

[yongkh]

Dear ED Team,

 

I am playing DCS exclusively in VR with my HP Reverb G2, the new update was superb in every possible way, virtually no (or not much) performance hit eventhough with so many enhancement and eye candies that ED have put in.

 

Was happy and excited for a while until when I found out that the old VR controller scheme has disappeared (with the laser pointers), that turns my excitement into a major disappointment.

 

ED, please bring back the old VR controller scheme especially it is not broken. The new VR controller scheme is a welcome change but not every one can use it, i kept hitting my table and monitor, also it is difficult to use and very unpredictable. Please let your players to choose which scheme we would like to use.

 

For now I will have to go back to Stable 2.5 until this is fix.

 

Thank you ED!

[Owl 1]

This is gamebreaking for me team! Please bring back the laser pointers. It's basically unplayable for me now. I understand people have different preferences, but removing a system most of your VR player base has gotten used to, while adding support for VR Free, a $1,500 hand tracking setup is wild to me. 

 

Edit: Also I'm having the issue where my in game hand is about half a hand too far forward from where my controllers are, completely new from 2.7

Edited April 15, 2021 by Owl 1

[Sirbum]

LoL completely agree about the VR free thing. as well as most players out there don't have 2K cockpit setups that they play with. that allows them all kinds of room

to the sides to reach down and hit buttons.

 

I am fairly sure there are a lot more players playing at a desk then there are in a home built cockpit, whether in VR or not.

[Draken35]

Same issue. Quest 2

[bacon8er]

Same issue in Quest 2.  Please resolve ASAP.

[Fri13]

11 hours ago, StevanJ said:

But now, im using the flat of my finger to place my finger onto MFD buttons, and the lower switches, instead of just 'pushing them' and because of the new larger glove theres a conflict in the way im able to use the control effectively.



Green was the old pointer.

Red is the new.
You can see this from being in the game, pointing at something and then pressing the menu button in the oculus, the pointer is WAY out not just a little bit.
Its almost 40 degrees in the wrong direction which is really confusing.

 

You should clear your configs and remake them.

Here is how it works on me:

 

 

As you can see, nothing like that is happening on my side as you report about the finger tip having wrong angle.

And you can as well see the problem I mentioned, every switch and button going crazy when finger stays in their activation zone as there is no limit how many times they can be manipulated per second. So you get difficult times with finger operation as switch does 50 actuations per second if you do not manage to just "swipe" the switch/button quickly over, and even then they can do movement couple times and end up to same position from where you wanted to flip them off. 

 

Under is video about the problem that I mentioned at the begin, the VR hand being seriously off-set from the real hand. In most VR games this is not such a problem as they are properly angled. And many offers a configuration option to adjust the virtual hand angle (usually a gun grip angle) in Y and X positions. 

Some games offers even a virtual automatic alignment here you either point the object with real hand and it will automatically adjust the virtual hand to point the object. Or you point the object with virtual hand that locks it in that direction, and then you move your real hand to match what you see and feel as "correct" and it is automatically this way adjusting virtual hand to match real hand angles. 

 

Here I am pointing the two red objects with my real finger as I would see it and point "Press this" kind a way.

Then I show the off-set angle in both X and Y axis that how much it is relative to my real finger and virtual finger. 

 

 

In the Oculus Home and all that the virtual hands are as well wrong. They point as well wrong direction but if I enable the VR controllers to be shown instead the hands, then the controllers are exactly correctly positioned, so the 3D models aligns perfectly with the real controller. It is the Oculus and now ED own "optimized hand angle/position" that is problem.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Fri13

[StevanJ]

23 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

You should clear your configs and remake them.

Here is how it works on me:

 

 

As you can see, nothing like that is happening on my side as you report about the finger tip having wrong angle. 

Nice! Good for you mate. But try and convince everyone else, because you wont change my mind.

So before the line went straight as it does in the oculus software like this.
See how the line went straight up the arm to the elbow.


DCS duplicated this perfectly. Where ever i pointed my arm, i was pointing at (As it was the most comfortable way of holding the controller)


You can see it better here, Quick flick of the arm and i can point and click really intuitively and click and grab buttons or switches with 0 effort- Its second nature.

 

Now when we look at the new pointer.

 

This difference in angle get really uncomfortable after about 30 minutes of pointing.
Im having to lift my wrist after i straighten my arm, which is giving me carpal tunnel' Its that bad! The angle above needs to be closed.

Now for you, someone who openly uses a HOTAS, its not a bad thing using the controller for a few minutes at a time.
Which is the reason youre not getting everybodies elses (and mine) issue.
But for the VR users like me, who solely use their VR controllers for EVERYTHING. Its Horrendous!

Look what happens when i straighten my arm. I now have to lift my wrist every time i want to touch something.


In the Mi8 its bad- Look here, straightening my arm, which means im pointing AWAY from the switches i want to click.
In the Jets- Well I cant play them right now, because after 10 minutes of clicking MFD's and switches with my right hand- its just too uncomfortable as im constantly bending back my wrist to close that angle- I just turn off.



As you can see in this video here- I use them exclusively for flying. I no longer use my HOTAS, because the setup DCS gave us before was gloriously PERFECT I cant tell you just how intuitively brilliant they were as you use a HOTAS, and you never used them before the update!
They'd perfected VR flight. The only thing we were missing were more bindings- But we didnt care, because the rest of it was perfect.
They were so good you can actively use them to fly the F-16 in pitch black, and refuel in the air Intuitively! They were that good Genuinely.

So once that pointer comes back thats in line with the Oculus pointer and the Binds come back, we'll be happy.
Feel free speak if im missing something anyone..

Cheers
 

[Fri13]

22 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Nice! Good for you mate. But try and convince everyone else, because you wont change my mind.

 

You are repeating my findings that I have been discussing all the time.... 

 

Check the point #3

 

Do you guess who was first one in this thread to bring up this problem?

So why you argue against when you are agreeing with me?

[StevanJ]

8 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

You are repeating my findings that I have been discussing all the time.... 

 

Check the point #3

 

Do you guess who was first one in this thread to bring up this problem?

So why you argue against when you are agreeing with me?

Ive not argued with you once.

I just thought you didnt understand as you said alot of conflicting things in your first post like 'you were happy with the new settings', But myself and the other users werent and i think thats sadly the bigger issue here.

I also couldnt tell if you understood our issue, as you continued to try and solve the bug. When what we need is a patch.

 

Quote

You just need to know where to point the hand to use those things like before. 

And its not a question of pointing the hand especially when its this uncomfortable.
If you were complaining that your HOTAS bindings were inverted, and i repeated the same phrase back to you surely youd think i didnt understand your issue.

Ive numerous times told you i agree with you, and numerous times youve told me that the pointer works.
Im mildly pointing out to why theyre are broken. And why lots of people have asked ED to fix it.
And im not angry that youve made suggestions. Im just letting you know, you cant help me. You shouldnt get upset with that, otherwise youll end up wasting your time for nothing..

Ive no arguments towards you in the slightest, Quite the opposite, thanks to you weve built a better case towards why they are broken.
Im grateful for that.

 

In the first 5 seconds you can see the cursor jump over to the right.
Thats how much its out! It just needs patching.
At 25 seconds you can see the issue, My arm is straight and yet the hand bends to the right, when i twist my hand horizontaly you cant see the cursor, and thats the issue in game with regards to the pointer.
At 45 seconds you can see me 'compensating' to see the cursor and im having to stress my wrist to lift it.

And at 55 seconds you see me holding my arm straight and vertical as if im holding a joystick, and you can see the bend in my wrist i have to do in order to see the cursor, i cant hold it for long.
 

Thanks to you we now have proof that this is a bug. And all the VR users can hopefully wait for a patch to fix it, and add key binds.

And as you said, hopefully an option for the pointer on or off.

[Negativghostrdr]

Same here.  Quest 2 lost laser pointers, resolution and clouds look awful.

[Whateves]

Yeah, the major problem for me, is losing the laser pointer.

 

Also, I should put this front and center: when you duplicate the control movements of real machines, you can likewise reproduce their injuries. For example, conventional rotary-wing controls can be an ergonomic nightmare – the dreaded “helo hunch,” as it’s called. There is a balance to the pursuit of realism in simulations.

 

I do like the idea of additional customization/accommodation around the laser pointer, if practicable – turn it on, turn it off, something in-between or contextual, etc.

 

One thing I've learned about control design, in general, is that people can be remarkably adaptive and flexible.

 

For me, the visual reference “laser” from the controller, is far more important than any vector offset of a virtual finger. That’s more like catching a ball, and switching from a mitt to a bare hand.

 

Whenever I try to come up with a control scheme, I know I make compromises. I start with my own ergonomics, and then fit in the adaptations for a long list of fixed-wing and rotary-wing craft. It would be difficult to come up with a universal cockpit, which could accommodate the entire DCS World module portfolio, with hand clearance to all controls of every cockpit.

 

Some of that touchy-glove technology does seem interesting. Literally reaching out and flipping switches – that is fun! I’ll probably go get some of that stuff to have fun and play around with. However, I would not recommend that folks hold out their arms in free space for very long, operating virtual switches and holding virtual throttles/flight-sticks. That is a recipe for blown rotator cuffs. There’s also a serious problem in there with counter-conditioning to control loading, which is contra-realistic compared to any basic spring-centered control.

 

Tonight’s Existential Question:

 

Should the future of aviation be about conditioning pilots to adapt to many different aircraft, versus adapting the aircraft to a common interface, which could be controlled by many different pilots?

[Fri13]

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

I just thought you didnt understand as you said alot of conflicting things in your first post like 'you were happy with the new settings', But myself and the other users werent and i think thats sadly the bigger issue here.

 

To get that all unrealistic back eventually (as not all is gone). Like the laser beam. Crosshair is right there when you point something far away, it just doesn't appear when you point something at close. They made it very clever manner that the crosshair and the laser beam is not distracting and blocking your view. As it is real immersion killer when every time you do something you have a laser beam pointing from your finger like 3rd class jedi.

 

The crosshair doesn't go through the canopy (unless pointing through glass) if the module cockpit is made support it like in AV-8B Harrier it goes through but in Mi-8 it doesn't, but it is there and it is fixable and it size change dynamically. It works very pleasant way in that manner. As it is increasing immersion as you don't have constant reminder that you are in game.

At long distance it is large and correctly there. Closer you bring it to you, smaller it becomes. And that is compensating for the illusion "it is outside of cockpit". 

It is visible only for the left eye, so it can look odd at first. 

 

 

The default bindings are still there.

Mini stick:

Up = Right click

Down = Left click

Right = Rotate clockwise

Left = Rotate counter-clockwise

 

Trigger = Left click

Grip = Grab / Activate pointer

X = Menu

Y = Re-center

B = Zoom

A = ???

 

Those are the default ones, still there like previously.

What DCS still doesn't have, is support to detect these controllers and allow to bind anything in them in three modes:

 

1) When GRIP is hold down

2) When GRIP is not hold down

3) When Virtual Hand is Grabbing something.

 

That is what we need. Options for settings among others already mentioned (hide/show laser beam etc).

The current main problems are:

1) the virtual glove does not match the real controller position and so on real hand, even when they have good idea with it now.

2) The "trigger" does not work as a trigger finger when grabbing a stick that has the trigger. Again something fixable with Vjoy but should be by ED.

 

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

I also couldnt tell if you understood our issue, as you continued to try and solve the bug. When what we need is a patch.

 

How are you going to fix a bug without a patch?

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

And its not a question of pointing the hand especially when its this uncomfortable.

 

It is actually comfortable now as is, it is just difficult to quickly point things as you need to work how you see, not how you feel. 

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

If you were complaining that your HOTAS bindings were inverted, and i repeated the same phrase back to you surely youd think i didnt understand your issue.

 

So your problem is exactly what?

You said that the finger tip is incorrectly angled. It was as you wanted.

You said that the grip was Press to Grab -> Press to Release. It was as you wanted (Press to Grab and Release to Release).

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

Ive numerous times told you i agree with you, and numerous times youve told me that the pointer works.
Im mildly pointing out to why theyre are broken. And why lots of people have asked ED to fix it.
And im not angry that youve made suggestions. Im just letting you know, you cant help me. You shouldnt get upset with that, otherwise youll end up wasting your time for nothing..

 

The new hand is better than before.

1) Fix the hand angle and position as I suggested to have option for it.

2) Add binding options (as people has wanted from 2016 or so) with couple sets.

3) Add some of the options back for those who want to enable lasers and crosshairs etc.

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

 

In the first 5 seconds you can see the cursor jump over to the right.
Thats how much its out! It just needs patching.

 

You can't say that from the loading screen and all. As tracking goes wonky when the VR app doesn't anymore receive the inputs for loading phase. Why you need to often reset the view once loading mission or main menu. And the angle is already in the VR controller angle case. Nothing new there. 

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

 

At 25 seconds you can see the issue, My arm is straight and yet the hand bends to the right, when i twist my hand horizontaly you cant see the cursor, and thats the issue in game with regards to the pointer.

 

Yes, that is the problem mentioned from the start. The virtual hand is not tied to physical controller properly. 

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

At 45 seconds you can see me 'compensating' to see the cursor and im having to stress my wrist to lift it.

And at 55 seconds you see me holding my arm straight and vertical as if im holding a joystick, and you can see the bend in my wrist i have to do in order to see the cursor, i cant hold it for long.

 

Yes. You can see those in my MiG video pointing the red controls and how much they are off-angle from real finger. 

 

9 hours ago, StevanJ said:

Thanks to you we now have proof that this is a bug. And all the VR users can hopefully wait for a patch to fix it, and add key binds.

And as you said, hopefully an option for the pointer on or off.

 

We don't need "a patch", we need a new configuration system as people have different controllers and different size hands and they hold different manners same controllers etc.

The Oculus SDK includes everything for a properly tracking each controller. All you really need to do is to build your own virtual hand model around that virtual model axis and same way place all the guns (if we would have) and objects to the hand.

The problems starts when we have different shaped objects than the controller is.

 

There is reason why developers has set that hand angle so, as it is more relaxing way to point things in a cockpit as you don't need to twist your wrist so much downward and it is out of the way as the hand doesn't block the finger position. 

It is purposely made so, and it works on close ranges but at longer ranges it becomes little distracting as own hand doesn't match it. 

 

That is why we need configuration option that we can adjust as wanted, each of their own. 

ED added support for a $1000 dollar VR gloves... (VRFree) but they can not add the binding option for already existing hardware? 

 

Like I would love to see those three modes (multipliers) of bindings options. 

So that when I am not holding GRIP button down, I can press A/B for centering view or opening game menu. 

When I am holding that GRIP button down, then I am pointing something and I might want A to be left click and B a right click.

And when I am grabbing something like a virtual stick, then I want the A to be a weapon release button and B to be something else. 

The DCS recognize when grabbing is done, so it can enable additional bindings for that mode. Others are just about multipliers as normal buttons and such.

 

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Whateves said:

Some of that touchy-glove technology does seem interesting. Literally reaching out and flipping switches – that is fun! I’ll probably go get some of that stuff to have fun and play around with. However, I would not recommend that folks hold out their arms in free space for very long, operating virtual switches and holding virtual throttles/flight-sticks. That is a recipe for blown rotator cuffs. 

 

It is more fun and immersive to be required move hands around the cockpit than just point things with mouse or with laser pointer. The actual process to reach a button above you or flip the switch behind a UFC is experience. But you are not doing that so much.

We never can have a realistic things like how a physical UFC allows to support left hand on left side of it, while thumb is used to press the buttons or we can't take a support to look back: https://youtu.be/WS4mZiIqzxU?t=458

 

But mainly you are holding hands on HOTAS. That is why VR controllers are not good as you can't operate aircraft realistic manner or properly like you can with HOTAS.

It is easy to fly a helicopter for couple hours when arm rest on your joystick and leg, compared to hold a touch controller on lap and avoid moving it or move it in air.

It is not so easy in DCS to flip switches that starts switching position rapidly and it makes it annoying as you can't be confirm that what you intend to do is done.  

 

[unknown]

On 4/15/2021 at 12:43 PM, BIGNEWY said:

I have reported the issues to the team 

 

thanks

Thank you very much for reporting this, it is the only "bad" thing i experienced with the 2.7 patch - the loss of the laser pointer. I now have to fumble with the controler, bump into my desk/keyboard/monitor... trying to use VR keys/switches/MFD's....all takes alot more time and tries that before was easily done. 

[StevanJ]

Can we move to keep these posts brief.
I still cant help but feel youre really not understanding mine and the many other peoples issues with people, with this bug.
 

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

The default bindings are still there.

Mini stick:

Up = Right click

Down = Left click

Right = Rotate clockwise

Left = Rotate counter-clockwise

 

Trigger = Left click

Grip = Grab / Activate pointer

X = Menu

Y = Re-center

B = Zoom

A = ???

Take a minute to go fly in a Warbird and try while fighting against an enemy, zoom while you shoot at ground units, not taking off your hands from the stick.
Thats the new bindings we have. Are you suggesting that i take my hands off the stick, while in a strafing dive so i can zoom? How will that help me shoot?

 

If you'd prefer to show this in the Mi8, hold the controls, then zoom and shoot your rockets without letting go of the controls.
 

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

You can't say that from the loading screen and all. As tracking goes wonky when the VR app doesn't anymore receive the inputs for loading phase. Why you need to often reset the view once loading mission or main menu. And the angle is already in the VR controller angle case. Nothing new there. 

The pointer/mouse cursor moves by a mile when you open the app, That hand in the lower pic should be to the left and straight as thats not where im pointing!
 

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

We don't need "a patch", we need a new configuration system as people have different controllers and different size hands and they hold different manners same controllers etc.

Yes, but until we get that, lets put the old system back in a patch for the many people like me who now cant play this game for longer than 30 minutes at a time..
The complaints against the new system, are now more than the complaints of the old system, i think the players have said there piece.
Look at the posts, theyre all a common issue. The pointer.
And if you have no issue with the new system, you shouldnt really need to be in this thread.

Also, please note that this is a bug report thread. A discussion of 'what we need' wont help anyone. Maybe you could go raise your points and start a discussion for why this new system is 'better than before' in the Virtual Reality section?
In the mean time, look at the many people who are not happy with the new configuration and the bugged pointer, and lets allow people to report the bug/issue they feel is a gamebreaker. Because thats the bottom line from the opening post, all the way to the latter posts.

So that we can have a route towards getting people back in the game.
If your pointer 'isnt broken' you should be very greatful, because for me and a lot of other players you can see in this thread, its is. And we would like some of the old system back.

 

3 hours ago, Whateves said:

Yeah, the major problem for me, is losing the laser pointer.

 

Also, I should put this front and center: when you duplicate the control movements of real machines, you can likewise reproduce their injuries. For example, conventional rotary-wing controls can be an ergonomic nightmare – the dreaded “helo hunch,” as it’s called. There is a balance to the pursuit of realism in simulations.

 

I do like the idea of additional customization/accommodation around the laser pointer, if practicable – turn it on, turn it off, something in-between or contextual, etc.

 

One thing I've learned about control design, in general, is that people can be remarkably adaptive and flexible.

 

For me, the visual reference “laser” from the controller, is far more important than any vector offset of a virtual finger. That’s more like catching a ball, and switching from a mitt to a bare hand.

 

Whenever I try to come up with a control scheme, I know I make compromises. I start with my own ergonomics, and then fit in the adaptations for a long list of fixed-wing and rotary-wing craft. It would be difficult to come up with a universal cockpit, which could accommodate the entire DCS World module portfolio, with hand clearance to all controls of every cockpit.

 

Some of that touchy-glove technology does seem interesting. Literally reaching out and flipping switches – that is fun! I’ll probably go get some of that stuff to have fun and play around with. However, I would not recommend that folks hold out their arms in free space for very long, operating virtual switches and holding virtual throttles/flight-sticks. That is a recipe for blown rotator cuffs. There’s also a serious problem in there with counter-conditioning to control loading, which is contra-realistic compared to any basic spring-centered control.

 

Tonight’s Existential Question:

 

Should the future of aviation be about conditioning pilots to adapt to many different aircraft, versus adapting the aircraft to a common interface, which could be controlled by many different pilots?

100% bang on.

[ross_freeman]

2 часа назад, Fri13 сказал:

 

To get that all unrealistic back eventually (as not all is gone). Like the laser beam. Crosshair is right there when you point something far away, it just doesn't appear when you point something at close. They made it very clever manner that the crosshair and the laser beam is not distracting and blocking your view. As it is real immersion killer when every time you do something you have a laser beam pointing from your finger like 3rd class jedi.

 

The crosshair doesn't go through the canopy (unless pointing through glass) if the module cockpit is made support it like in AV-8B Harrier it goes through but in Mi-8 it doesn't, but it is there and it is fixable and it size change dynamically. It works very pleasant way in that manner. As it is increasing immersion as you don't have constant reminder that you are in game.

At long distance it is large and correctly there. Closer you bring it to you, smaller it becomes. And that is compensating for the illusion "it is outside of cockpit". 

It is visible only for the left eye, so it can look odd at first. 

 

 

The default bindings are still there.

Mini stick:

Up = Right click

Down = Left click

Right = Rotate clockwise

Left = Rotate counter-clockwise

 

Trigger = Left click

Grip = Grab / Activate pointer

X = Menu

Y = Re-center

B = Zoom

A = ???

 

Those are the default ones, still there like previously.

What DCS still doesn't have, is support to detect these controllers and allow to bind anything in them in three modes:

 

1) When GRIP is hold down

2) When GRIP is not hold down

3) When Virtual Hand is Grabbing something.

 

That is what we need. Options for settings among others already mentioned (hide/show laser beam etc).

The current main problems are:

1) the virtual glove does not match the real controller position and so on real hand, even when they have good idea with it now.

2) The "trigger" does not work as a trigger finger when grabbing a stick that has the trigger. Again something fixable with Vjoy but should be by ED.

 

 

 

How are you going to fix a bug without a patch?

 

 

It is actually comfortable now as is, it is just difficult to quickly point things as you need to work how you see, not how you feel. 

 

 

So your problem is exactly what?

You said that the finger tip is incorrectly angled. It was as you wanted.

You said that the grip was Press to Grab -> Press to Release. It was as you wanted (Press to Grab and Release to Release).

 

 

The new hand is better than before.

1) Fix the hand angle and position as I suggested to have option for it.

2) Add binding options (as people has wanted from 2016 or so) with couple sets.

3) Add some of the options back for those who want to enable lasers and crosshairs etc.

 

 

You can't say that from the loading screen and all. As tracking goes wonky when the VR app doesn't anymore receive the inputs for loading phase. Why you need to often reset the view once loading mission or main menu. And the angle is already in the VR controller angle case. Nothing new there. 

 

 

Yes, that is the problem mentioned from the start. The virtual hand is not tied to physical controller properly. 

 

 

Yes. You can see those in my MiG video pointing the red controls and how much they are off-angle from real finger. 

 

 

We don't need "a patch", we need a new configuration system as people have different controllers and different size hands and they hold different manners same controllers etc.

The Oculus SDK includes everything for a properly tracking each controller. All you really need to do is to build your own virtual hand model around that virtual model axis and same way place all the guns (if we would have) and objects to the hand.

The problems starts when we have different shaped objects than the controller is.

 

There is reason why developers has set that hand angle so, as it is more relaxing way to point things in a cockpit as you don't need to twist your wrist so much downward and it is out of the way as the hand doesn't block the finger position. 

It is purposely made so, and it works on close ranges but at longer ranges it becomes little distracting as own hand doesn't match it. 

 

That is why we need configuration option that we can adjust as wanted, each of their own. 

ED added support for a $1000 dollar VR gloves... (VRFree) but they can not add the binding option for already existing hardware? 

 

Like I would love to see those three modes (multipliers) of bindings options. 

So that when I am not holding GRIP button down, I can press A/B for centering view or opening game menu. 

When I am holding that GRIP button down, then I am pointing something and I might want A to be left click and B a right click.

And when I am grabbing something like a virtual stick, then I want the A to be a weapon release button and B to be something else. 

The DCS recognize when grabbing is done, so it can enable additional bindings for that mode. Others are just about multipliers as normal buttons and such.

 

But trigger not working. And zoom not working when you crab stick. 

[Fri13]

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Can we move to keep these posts brief.
I still cant help but feel youre really not understanding mine and the many other peoples issues with people, with this bug.

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Take a minute to go fly in a Warbird and try while fighting against an enemy, zoom while you shoot at ground units, not taking off your hands from the stick.
Thats the new bindings we have. Are you suggesting that i take my hands off the stick, while in a strafing dive so i can zoom? How will that help me shoot?

 

I don't use zoom. It is 100% unrealistic.

But as I said, it is already acknowledged that bindings are gone when grabbing something, it needs fixing by implementing totally new binding system. Not by reverting to something old that was left behind for purpose.

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

The pointer/mouse cursor moves by a mile when you open the app, That hand in the lower pic should be to the left and straight as thats not where im pointing!

 

Mouse cursor doesn't move on me. It stays same position in DCS as on the Oculus Menu or virtual desktop. Problem is that as I explained, Oculus own hand is as well off-set wrong on me same way. It was proper some long time ago when Rift S got out but in CV1. But some patches after that it got off. Even when the 3D modeled touch controllers are exactly properly aligned. 

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Yes, but until we get that, lets put the old system back in a patch for the many people like me who now cant play this game for longer than 30 minutes at a time..

 

Trying to fix something that a new code added is not easy by trying to just patch old code in. It is easier just to go and just do what is needed to be done. It is not like a changing car tires that when you notice one new tire is flat, that you can just place a old tire in its place until you get new tire fixed. 

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

The complaints against the new system, are now more than the complaints of the old system, i think the players have said there piece.

 

Yet there are tens of thousands that do not complain..... 

Sorry but that is not an argument. It is just an evidence that there is people who want something else.

And as I have said, all is fine as long it is optional to be enabled by those who want to have laser beams and want to have a own custom bindings and want to have own pink flying horse gloves etc. 

 

More options and merrier. 

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Look at the posts, theyre all a common issue. The pointer.

 

Common issue was that we had a laser beam coming from our finger tip regardless how far it was. Any time you wanted to use your hands it was a laser show inside a cockpit. Completely unrealistic and immersion braking. 

It is superior to have that laser beam gone for short ranges (reach of a hand) as your task in a cockpit is to actually reach up to the control and do something. 

Yes, make it a opt-in setting in VR as I have been saying from the start so those who need such, can enable laser beams to be happy. But at some point people need to understand that if they keep hitting their joystick on the table, that the problem is in the location of that joystick and table and not in the game that requires you to move the joystick such amount that joystick allows to be moved. 

If someone builds himself a 80 x 60 cm box where they want to play full room VR games then it is their problem that they didn't make it 2 x 2 meters at least.

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

And if you have no issue with the new system, you shouldnt really need to be in this thread.

 

As I have said from the begin, there are issues that needs implementing and fixing. 

 

 

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Also, please note that this is a bug report thread. A discussion of 'what we need' wont help anyone.

 

Part of the bug reporting is that you tell what is wrong in your opinion and you can suggest the solution for it.

If a game crash because you press button A, then there is no other solution than "make it so that it doesn't crash".

But when the bug report is about bindings, usability and features, then every opinion counts. 

 

Hence, more options. What options we need. Who wants what kind options. etc.

 

As if you want something improved, you need to tell what you want.

If someone just go saying "IT IS BROKEN AS WE DON'T HAVE LASER BEAMS!" then it is 100% wrong if they just would add laser beams back, because it is great that we don't have anymore laser beams! And it is not just my opinion alone. 

 

So what can you do when you have two group of people with different opinions for same topic of laser beams either ON or OFF?

You make an suggestion that it would be a option in VR settings that you can enable the laser beam if you want it or leave it disabled if not wanted. 

 

When you make a usability improvement by making the virtual hands angled so that you can more relaxed way point things with virtual hand, it is counter-productive to go demand that it can't be in such position and should only be in X position. No, it needs to be a setting where player itself can go and adjust the virtual hand position and angle as pleased to fit for their purposes if the default one doesn't please them. 

 

People need to understand that bug reports are exactly about discussions that what should happen or why. In a question of simulating reality there is no much opinions as only factor is reality, so if a light switch works in reality only in Up/Down direction, it doesn't help to say that they want it to work Left/Right direction.

When it comes to controller bindings and such, there are considerations that are per player.  Someone doesn't want to have a zoom button, someone does. Someone doesn't want toggle but hold, and someone wants other way around. Someone doesn't want to use VR controllers and someone does.

If one group go to say that their preferred setting is the only way then next time after update there will be bug report that request opposite. 

Only choice is to gather the opinions and make there options so people can choose who they want their controllers to behave. 

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Maybe you could go raise your points and start a discussion for why this new system is 'better than before' in the Virtual Reality section?

 

It is not a bug report and correct place, and you know it. 

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

In the mean time, look at the many people who are not happy with the new configuration and the bugged pointer, and lets allow people to report the bug/issue they feel is a gamebreaker.

 

If they feel something is broken, they can share their opinions and findings. I already did and pointed out those problems that you are now saying that I am against to, but I came up with the suggested solutions while you just want everything to go back to old. We finally got improvements, and you want to go back - until things gets fixed... Like what would be the fix then?

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Because thats the bottom line from the opening post, all the way to the latter posts.

 

Really, lets see what the OP says:

 

"Just installed 2.7 and my VR controllers have lost the laser pointer (on grip) and key bindings."

 

Yes, he lost the laser pointer, that we have already all agreed. But people who demands it back should not ignore the opinions of others who want it to be only optional, not forced change. It is as much wrong to demand it to be there for everyone as it is for it being removed from everyone. Solution is, make it optional so everyone can choose do they enable or disable it. 

 Then comes to other point, "lost key bindings". And it is below:

 

"Before I didn't have to setup the controller in the usual input bindings, the trigger did left click but the thumb stick would rotate or click switches up or down."

 

And that is false. It all is there. All that works exactly as before, unlike how OP says that it doesn't. Trigger is left click, thumb stick would rotate or click switches etc. It is ALL THERE!

So first half part of the bug report is totally false as it has not been lost.

 

Let's see the second part:

 

"Now the beam is gone so I can't easily see what I'm pointing at and only the trigger works, so I can't turn dials or flick switches easily anymore."

 

So lets split it to parts. "Can't easily see what I am pointing at" like can't anyone see where their finger is pointing at? Again, in reality I don't need a laser beam from my finger so I can press these keyboard buttons or I can click a mouse button or I can flip a light switch on the wall. It all works correctly as the touch part is in the proper position on finger to be used.

But of course people want to be clicking things in pilot cockpit from rear RIO cockpit. From the commander seat to co-pilot seat in Mi-8 or UH-1.

The real aircraft is designed so that things are either easy to reach or more difficult to reach. Important parts are made more easily accessible while unimportant or unneeded are put aside. This is why example some functions are behind in difficult place and some are front of you in easy place. Why HOTAS has important functions so nothing else needs to be pressed while some requires hands to be moved.

 

It is pretty moot point that someone say that they can't move hands without colliding to their table and all, once they fly only in VR because they shift their places to play so often that they can't carry a HOTAS with them in traveling etc. If all they need is a simple chair, then move that simple chair just a little further from the table so they have little more space. 

Again, if they have problems that they can't have all the functions in their VR controller and need to lay down their hand on the laptop, maybe it is better that they support idea to fix that problem that VR controllers would be bindable for various functions. Like they could use a mini-stick as TDC hat and mini-stick press as a TDC Action/lock. That they could use a trigger as trigger and one of the buttons as bomb release button. Now they don't need to move hands on the laptop to do tasks that they were required do previously and keep laptop near them.  Hence properly bindable buttons, hats and all in VR controller fix a lot of problems and makes better gameplay same time. 

 

The other part of that sentence is just repeating that OP can't turn dials or flick switches while it is still possible since the begin they got added to VR hands (at the begin we had just floating hands without function to operate anything). 

And then last part from OP post:

 

"Any idea when these things would be back as at the moment the game is pretty much unplayable and 2D is not an option for me."

 

They are back... All those functions are as they never left!

Trigger is LMB, hat does click LMB/RMB and rotate knobs and all. 

The finger tip is just like before, everything is like before except that there is no laser beam visible for close range use.

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

So that we can have a route towards getting people back in the game.

 

It is right there already.... The OP doesn't talk about "I need to loosen grip from a virtual stick to zoom in" at any given part in his post.

There is no "I can't shoot a cannon with the trigger when I am holding the stick" and how it is different "I play by having left hand on laptop to use space, alt+space, ,.- and l to move TDC around" etc? Because those functions isn't there. Yes the trigger enables the virtual trigger finger movement in stick but that is it. 

And when someone suggest the proper fix for that is that there should be means to bind VR controller functions in two modes + when grabbing stick/throttle/lever, that it is not a fix but old mechanic should be brought back. Like since when did the old 2.5 version allow to use TDC with the mini-stick in left hand VR controller when grabbing a throttle? Or have a bomb release button, trimmer and trigger in right hand when grabbing the stick?  

 

46 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

If your pointer 'isnt broken' you should be very greatful, because for me and a lot of other players you can see in this thread, its is. And we would like some of the old system back.

 

If the system has all those things still in place, they have not gone away. And if something is not gone, it can't be brought back.  

There is possibility that people just updated to 2.7 and didn't clear their settings and have conflict there. Those things happens.

 

If some people have all those functions as should, but some doesn't, they have problem but it doesn't mean that the system needs reversing new features as it is not a fix!

Should developers go change the code in a game if player has broken configuration files from previous version?

 

 

 

[Fri13]

22 minutes ago, Lexx_freeman said:

But trigger not working. And zoom not working when you crab stick. 

 

That is not the OP bug report topic. He does not have mini-stick doing left/right mouse clicks and rotating knobs and all that.

Nothing about "Hey, when I grab a virtual stick with VR controller the trigger doesn't do anything even when a index finger in new gloves moves as it would be pulling a trigger". 

 

Yes, as I have acknowledged it from the begin already...  That has been missing thing from the day 1 years back that we can not bind all the buttons and everything as required in the VR controllers when we grab things but we are relaying to some specific ones. And as I have explained, going through the binding process using Vjoy, one can see that those are still binded to the VR system part. If you try to bind them doing so, there comes the conflict and system (as with any binding twice same control button/hat/axis) says that "This is already in use for this, do you want to cease to exist there?". 

 

We need a official mean to bind trigger do what we need it to do. We need to have means to bind TDC axis to mini-stick. To set even a NWS/Undesignate or Lock function to buttons. So that no one is required to use keyboard or anything else to do the basic things at minimum level (naturally one can't bind all that Warthog throttle has for a left Touch Controller, but very basic things can be done like TDC, Lock, China Hat Forward"

 

Zoom is one of the features that not everyone need. Or maybe some one would like it to be on the left controller instead on right one. 

 

"Fix the cause, not the symptoms... "

 

Even if zoom and trigger would start again working, it doesn't fix the problem. It doesn't make those gaming better who are forced to fly with a one hand on laptop to operate a TDC or launch a missile or release bombs as they can't use the left with right VR controller to do those basic things. 

 

 

 

[ross_freeman]

23 минуты назад, Fri13 сказал:

 

That is not the OP bug report topic. He does not have mini-stick doing left/right mouse clicks and rotating knobs and all that.

Nothing about "Hey, when I grab a virtual stick with VR controller the trigger doesn't do anything even when a index finger in new gloves moves as it would be pulling a trigger". 

 

Yes, as I have acknowledged it from the begin already...  That has been missing thing from the day 1 years back that we can not bind all the buttons and everything as required in the VR controllers when we grab things but we are relaying to some specific ones. And as I have explained, going through the binding process using Vjoy, one can see that those are still binded to the VR system part. If you try to bind them doing so, there comes the conflict and system (as with any binding twice same control button/hat/axis) says that "This is already in use for this, do you want to cease to exist there?". 

 

We need a official mean to bind trigger do what we need it to do. We need to have means to bind TDC axis to mini-stick. To set even a NWS/Undesignate or Lock function to buttons. So that no one is required to use keyboard or anything else to do the basic things at minimum level (naturally one can't bind all that Warthog throttle has for a left Touch Controller, but very basic things can be done like TDC, Lock, China Hat Forward"

 

Zoom is one of the features that not everyone need. Or maybe some one would like it to be on the left controller instead on right one. 

 

"Fix the cause, not the symptoms... "

 

Even if zoom and trigger would start again working, it doesn't fix the problem. It doesn't make those gaming better who are forced to fly with a one hand on laptop to operate a TDC or launch a missile or release bombs as they can't use the left with right VR controller to do those basic things. 

 

 

 

The thing is, everything worked before the update.

[StevanJ]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

I don't use zoom. It is 100% unrealistic.

But youve Just said

 

Quote

You are not swapping the seats, you are swapping the character. That is the difference. You are in the RPG where you select what AI seat you are playing. You are not flying alone the helicopter but with the AI. So you just "allocate the soul" of the AI. 

Here

I cant help but feel like youre trolling us. No one can be that hypocritical to realism.
Is this a game or not? You cant have double standards when it comes to having your own way.

15 people have put their name to a complaint. Its only going to get bigger.

Let the game players have their issues addressed.
 

59 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

Zoom is one of the features that not everyone need. Or maybe some one would like it to be on the left controller instead on right one. 

 

"Fix the cause, not the symptoms... "

 

Even if zoom and trigger would start again working, it doesn't fix the problem. It doesn't make those gaming better who are forced to fly with a one hand on laptop to operate a TDC or launch a missile or release bombs as they can't use the left with right VR controller to do those basic things. 

This is your opinion, To me is Wrong. Youve stated numerous times that you use a HOTAS.
The API, might be as simple as replacing the Oculus config for the old one, but asking ED to 'redevelop the controls' i feel is a BIG ask when the players who have the complaint are asking them for the old one.
As youve stated you dont use Touch Controls to fly, i dont think your opinion is a valid one, as you havent experienced what myself and the others have.
Youve raised some good points, but they are falling short.
 

36 minutes ago, Lexx_freeman said:

The thing is, everything worked before the update.

100% right, I dont think this guy understands. And for some reason, he doesnt seem able to understand that he has no issues.
I dont know why he is re-iterating everything over and over?

He can play the game with comfort, We cant.

Edited April 16, 2021 by StevanJ

[Fri13]

17 minutes ago, Lexx_freeman said:

The thing is, everything worked before the update.

 

Did you do clean install by removing all the previous version configs and saves?

As everything that OP says doesn't exist anymore for mini-stick, are still there. 

Those features has not been remove or replaced. 

Instead there has been removed the laser beam (topic already discussed) and added bunch of new effects like VR camera controls with the right hand. 

 

 

 

 

So tell what does not work in that, compared to what OP says needs to be brought back?

 

"Before I didn't have to setup the controller in the usual input bindings, the trigger did left click but the thumb stick would rotate or click switches up or down. Now the beam is gone so I can't easily see what I'm pointing at and only the trigger works, so I can't turn dials or flick switches easily anymore. Any idea when these things would be back as at the moment the game is pretty much unplayable and 2D is not an option for me."

 

So did those things got removed? No

Are those the usual input bindings? Yes.

Are they required to be binded? No, impossible as you can't bind anything on VR controllers.

 

Everything that OP says is missing (except the laser beam), is still there. Not missing, not gone....