KA-50 Project

[crazysundog]

OK, well you lost me at yate loons/sharkoon...

I only planned on having 3-4 fans powered until I added another GPU...so you think thats maybe overdoing it?? I could easily get a smaller case with 2 x 120mm fans, just thought it would overheat with the Mobo and CPU i picked out...?

[-Skipper-]

I like Vista when its not quirky. I think Windows 2000 Professional was the best verion of windows microsucks ever produced. Used it for damn near 4 years without even having to reformat and it ran as well as the day I bought the computer. Moved from Windows Me straight to that, went to Xp for a few years....Had more problems with Xp than I ever did with Windows 2000, but I had more problems with Vista x64 than I have had with any other system combined. BUT...I havent had one problem the last 2 months since I reinstalled Vista. Seems like the patches are starting to finally work.

 

+1

 

I recently upgraded my rig, too, and installed my XPSP2 for a few testruns. It crashed 2 times during installation and without any fency gadgets installed, it crashed 3 times during driver installation.

I installed Vista64SP1 and didn't have a single crash on the same rig for several weeks now. It's not only very stable, but also has some very nice features, that improved my workflow a lot. If you spend a few minutes to lean about the new features, you can safe a lot of time with Vista, compared to previous versions.

 

I've had PCs since the early DOS-days and there have always been a large number of people who didn't want to upgrade to a new thing, because it was like inviting the plain evil. I know a lot of people, who still work on Windows 3.11, because they are convinced every release thereafter was a reincarnation from hell and Bill Gates is a sort of digital Satan.

 

All nonsense. Every piece of software has it's pro's and con's. It's just that the more complex our world get's, the more people are starting to hate new things. Best example is Vistas activation-process. Pretty similar to XP, but it's still a common complain, that Vista is the next step in spying out your PC, because you have to call MS or activate it on the net. The same thing, but suddenly XP is the good thing and Vista is pure evil.

[rattler]

I should also have mentioned that I don't run many different types of apps., and that goes a long way to not having any OS issues. This rig will be my first actual gaming computer, and I'm having a proffesional build it. That being said, I want to keep it simple... no Overclocking for me...

 

Question: I'm getting a 750w PSU, with a case that has 6 fans... if i upgrade my CPU, or get another GPU, should I invest in water cooling? How much does it help, really?

 

p.s. not trying to hijack your thread rattler, but i feel this is continuing your original thoughts. i am buying this rig almost solely for use with BlackShark, and would like some input on specs.

 

No problem this is what the thread was meant for, the passing of information on BS or other large applications. Hope someone can answer your question. Good Luck!!

[rattler]

+1

 

I recently upgraded my rig, too, and installed my XPSP2 for a few testruns. It crashed 2 times during installation and without any fency gadgets installed, it crashed 3 times during driver installation.

I installed Vista64SP1 and didn't have a single crash on the same rig for several weeks now. It's not only very stable, but also has some very nice features, that improved my workflow a lot. If you spend a few minutes to lean about the new features, you can safe a lot of time with Vista, compared to previous versions.

 

I've had PCs since the early DOS-days and there have always been a large number of people who didn't want to upgrade to a new thing, because it was like inviting the plain evil. I know a lot of people, who still work on Windows 3.11, because they are convinced every release thereafter was a reincarnation from hell and Bill Gates is a sort of digital Satan.

 

All nonsense. Every piece of software has it's pro's and con's. It's just that the more complex our world get's, the more people are starting to hate new things. Best example is Vistas activation-process. Pretty similar to XP, but it's still a common complain, that Vista is the next step in spying out your PC, because you have to call MS or activate it on the net. The same thing, but suddenly XP is the good thing and Vista is pure evil.

 

If all you do is office work then Vista maybe ok for you. For gamers it is one hell of mess. Driver issues, try your expensive EAX sound card, try to find drivers for all your devices, yes you will find some and they are not worth shit. When Gates decided to end support for XP this year, why did the Business World hit him hard with what they would do if he tried it. It will not run Company designed applications. To much eye candy affects employee performance. On and On so don't indicate Vista is great. I have had Xp from the start have had 5 computers built for gaming and windows Xp loaded back on with not a hitch nor has it given any since SP2. Also you forget Vista was a short interm OS for the next generation of MS's new OS. Soon to be out, so they say. This is old news and by the way a lot of gamers have gone back to XP because of inconsistent driver support , etc. Just got to read. Read the proper material to, the factual information from people who know what is going on in the world of computing and I don't mean Magazines.Cheers and enjoy Vista.

[crazysundog]

what you say makes a lot of sense newfie...the guy thats building my rig thinks I'm dumb for wanting Vista, I still dont think I'll go with Xp cuz I'm used to vista now, but it makes me wonder about dual booting...

[hitman]

If all you do is office work then Vista maybe ok for you. For gamers it is one hell of mess.

Im a gamer, I dont have much issues with Vista. The only problems are with past generation games using DX8.1 and below. Your trying to run something that hasnt been used in almost a decade that isnt supported in DX10 or really isnt translated well by the DX9L emulator in DX10. With that said, Xp is excellent for DX6 thru DX9 games. Vista is excellent with DX9 and up games. The one thing that aggrivated me to no end was the support for the X64 bit systems. Office 2007 works fine on my system, Nero works fine, DivX works fine, my phone and camera works fine, my joysticks and rudder pedals work just fine, my game pad works fine...etc etc. There isnt a driver (except for legacy hardware that isnt supported anymore) that I cant find for Vista, with the exception of certain sound cards. If thats true, how come my sound card works just fine? Its built in on the motherboard, but it sounds just as good if not better than anything Creative has out.

 

Besides...its not Microsoft that makes the drivers, its the hardware makers that make the drivers. You can blame them, not Vista.

Edited September 14, 2008 by hitman_214th

[-Skipper-]

If all you do is office work then Vista maybe ok for you. For gamers it is one hell of mess. Driver issues, try your expensive EAX sound card, try to find drivers for all your devices, yes you will find some and they are not worth shit. When Gates decided to end support for XP this year, why did the Business World hit him hard with what they would do if he tried it. It will not run Company designed applications. To much eye candy affects employee performance. On and On so don't indicate Vista is great. I have had Xp from the start have had 5 computers built for gaming and windows Xp loaded back on with not a hitch nor has it given any since SP2. Also you forget Vista was a short interm OS for the next generation of MS's new OS. Soon to be out, so they say. This is old news and by the way a lot of gamers have gone back to XP because of inconsistent driver support , etc. Just got to read. Read the proper material to, the factual information from people who know what is going on in the world of computing and I don't mean Magazines.Cheers and enjoy Vista.

 

That is a lot of propaganda, but little to no facts and a lot of second hand experience.

 

1. It takes just one option and Vista looks the same as XP. You don't need the fency look, but you CAN have it.

2. That eyecandy has an effect on office-programs, but not on games, as the desktop is disabled while playing.

3. Driversupport for Vista is AT LEAST as good as for XP for standard hardware. If you got older devices, that are no longer supported, that is a problem, of course, but that's not M$ fault, but that of the company you bought that device from!

4. My X-FI-drivers work quite fine. Not all features are supported with vista, but that is also not entirely M$ fault, because it took Creative a long time to release working drivers and they've still not released a hardware that can fully benefit from the new features. Additionally, Creative started a lawsuit on a programmer, who released drivers that fully support the X-FI under Vista and closed down his site and prohibited sharing of those drivers. You don't want to blame M$ for that, either?

 

After all it might interest you, that XP had a prognosted life-cycle of 4-5 years. When XP was released, there were especially the gamers who kept claiming that Win98 was the best software for running games, with ongoing support, excellent driver basis and support for their hardware, while XP had only a lot of eyecandy, even a new format (NTFS), which was a reincarnation from hell, according to many players and only suitable for running servers and professional applications.

 

So, I'm not really surprised that so many people fall for that end of the world scenario again. Let's face it: Negative news is always a lot more profitable than positive and the media never said what is true, but what people wanted to hear. And who would by a magazine or visit a professional hardware-forum / Homepage, that would support a person like Bill Gates?

 

You can of course believe what you want and stay with XP as long as you want / can. But you and I know that the nay-sayers won't change with Windows7. In fact, the opposite will happen. People start posting negative news about that windows-version, too, and then the witch-hunt just starts all over again.

 

 

It's frightening, how many people just repeat other peoples opinion, without making up their own by first hand experience. :no_sad:

 

 

@ Hitman:

I run pretty old games on my Vista (a DX5 strategy game!) - no problem with that. The problem comes with newer hardware, though, as my graphics card (ATI/AMD 4870) no longer supports these features. But as LockOners, we all know that problem from the no longer working active shadowing in LockOn, which is due to the same problem.

Edited September 14, 2008 by -Skipper-

[luckyhendrix]

I can tell by experience that vista does use more perf than XP , with the same PC on XP crysis runned fine in High settings , On vista with forced DX9 it was totaly unplayable in high settings , med setting was required to have nthe game playable.

 

Second to that I've got numerous bugs with all kind of software on vista.But hopefuly they seems to be a lot less now. :D

[-Skipper-]

Well, Crysis is not the best example for an optimized game. I hope that the upcoming sequel will be better optimized to utilize DX10 features, but it didn't surprise me, as on Crysis release, there were only a few systems running with Vista and the patches for Crysis have been as seldom as raindrops in the Sahara and they accomplished a similar improvement.

 

What problems did you have with Falcon, Acedy? I run both, Falcon4 and AF with Vista64, but didn't experience any major problem so far. The only thing I noticed were the transluscent objects with HighEnd gfx-cards, but that problem was fixed with the latest patch. :thumbup:

[Fahrenheit007]

Stop it with the "vista sucks because it runs shit on my pc"

From experience, vista works fine if you have a good enough PC, if your hardware is not up to the job, you WILL get crashes. If your hardware is good enough, then you are doing something wrong

 

 

I have vista too and havn't any Problems with Lo or other games

 

So its my opinion, too!!!

 

GREETz Fahrenheit

[Zorrin]

I have Vista and hate it.

The reason being is that it isn't a nice OS to use. It has a lot of things that have been part of Mac OS X for a long time.

Perhaps I'm just biased as I use a Mac for all the hard hitting things I do, like surfing the internet, not getting viruses etc etc.

Vista caused me several problems until they released SP1. After that it seemed to clear up a little, but it does seem to mainly be a driver issue.

Fundamentally it does the job, albeit in a clunky fashion.

[Boberro]

Stop it with the "vista sucks because it runs shit on my pc"

From experience, vista works fine if you have a good enough PC, if your hardware is not up to the job, you WILL get crashes. If your hardware is good enough, then you are doing something wrong

 

 

Yep it is simple rule - strong PC get Vista, low-med PC, don't get Vista nad don't complain ;)

[crazysundog]

I have Vista and hate it.

The reason being is that it isn't a nice OS to use. It has a lot of things that have been part of Mac OS X for a long time.

Perhaps I'm just biased as I use a Mac for all the hard hitting things I do, like surfing the internet, not getting viruses etc etc.

Vista caused me several problems until they released SP1. After that it seemed to clear up a little, but it does seem to mainly be a driver issue.

Fundamentally it does the job, albeit in a clunky fashion.

 

I've never used a Mac, but a lot of ppl I know say they are great... Will you be able to play BS on it? Is there good driver support for apps, games, HOTAS, TIR4, etc.etc.?? My brother uses his for video editing, and I know that Xplane was developed on Macs, but I really have no clue what they are good for, and what the pitfalls may be...

[-sulan-]

I've never used a Mac, but a lot of ppl I know say they are great... Will you be able to play BS on it? Is there good driver support for apps, games, HOTAS, TIR4, etc.etc.?? My brother uses his for video editing, and I know that Xplane was developed on Macs, but I really have no clue what they are good for, and what the pitfalls may be...

 

Does'nt matter, I boot XP on the mac as well :) For those late gaming nights in the studio

[Zorrin]

I have a MacBook Pro and an iMac and yes if I load up XP on them it'll run ike a dream. Windoze runs better on a Mac than on a PC....

AlphaOneSix's sig is also an indication that it'll run just fine on a Mac with Windoze...

[rattler]

Im a gamer, I dont have much issues with Vista. The only problems are with past generation games using DX8.1 and below. Your trying to run something that hasnt been used in almost a decade that isnt supported in DX10 or really isnt translated well by the DX9L emulator in DX10. With that said, Xp is excellent for DX6 thru DX9 games. Vista is excellent with DX9 and up games. The one thing that aggrivated me to no end was the support for the X64 bit systems. Office 2007 works fine on my system, Nero works fine, DivX works fine, my phone and camera works fine, my joysticks and rudder pedals work just fine, my game pad works fine...etc etc. There isnt a driver (except for legacy hardware that isnt supported anymore) that I cant find for Vista, with the exception of certain sound cards. If thats true, how come my sound card works just fine? Its built in on the motherboard, but it sounds just as good if not better than anything Creative has out.

 

Besides...its not Microsoft that makes the drivers, its the hardware makers that make the drivers. You can blame them, not Vista.

 

Yes I know it is the 3rd party drivers and they are not that interested in investing time on Vista drivers. Your on board sound card does not produce EAX sounds, may sound nice to you but Creative is still much better and can't be used. I don't think you would be too happy if you paid 400 - 700 dollars for sound card with EAX capibility and can't use it. I am glad Vista works for you as I wish everyone could say that but they can't and never will. Yes you can use most of what you mentioned it all depends on age of your investments, some have to use the MS generic driver and therefore do not have full functions of the product. Anyway this is a no win situation so lets just drop the XP vs Vista and continue with the thread topic. We agree to disagree.

[crazysundog]

I have a MacBook Pro and an iMac and yes if I load up XP on them it'll run ike a dream. Windoze runs better on a Mac than on a PC....

AlphaOneSix's sig is also an indication that it'll run just fine on a Mac with Windoze...

 

Interesting, i had no idea...:notify:

 

however, rattler is right, back on topic please!!

 

I've got another query maybe some could help with: As previously stated, I will be going with Vista on my new build, but what are the merits of 64bit as opposed to 32? I have 32bit home premium on my laptop, but I've heard that 32 wont recognize any more than 4 GB ram...for that matter, do I/will I need more than 4 GB for DCS:BS, and the upcoming releases with new game engine?? The reason I'm going with a quad instead of a duo is that eventually the quad will be supported, so maybe having 6 or 8GB ram is something i should plan for... any enlightening thoughts?? - im pretty new to flight simming!

 

I've tried searching hardware forums such as HardwareCanucks, but those guys are waaaay beyond my level....

[-sulan-]

Interesting, i had no idea...:notify:

 

however, rattler is right, back on topic please!!

 

I've got another query maybe some could help with: As previously stated, I will be going with Vista on my new build, but what are the merits of 64bit as opposed to 32? I have 32bit home premium on my laptop, but I've heard that 32 wont recognize any more than 4 GB ram...for that matter, do I/will I need more than 4 GB for DCS:BS, and the upcoming releases with new game engine?? The reason I'm going with a quad instead of a duo is that eventually the quad will be supported, so maybe having 6 or 8GB ram is something i should plan for... any enlightening thoughts?? - im pretty new to flight simming!

 

I've tried searching hardware forums such as HardwareCanucks, but those guys are waaaay beyond my level....

 

I'll also be building a new rig after BS is released (as in probably the same day :P)..

My thoughts on 32 vs. 64 bit: I'll go with 64bit (assuming BS (and Fallout 3) runs on it) because I think any problems that we have now will be sorted out in the near future..

[-Skipper-]

Heh, spitting on M$ but praising Macs. It would deserve an extra thread to name all the irony contained in this.

 

Well, anyway: Some features of Creatives EAX don't work with Vista. That doesn't mean you can't use them or benefit of the other features. Infact in the meanwhile, the drivers are as good as for XP and you won't notice the few effects, because these are only audible in a few Direct-X applications.

So, between a "400 - 700 dollars ... sound card with EAX capibility" you "...can't use..." and the actual situation it's a looooong way.

[RedTiger]

The day I can go and buy parts and build my own Mac is the day that seriously consider giving a Mac a try. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't do that can you? To me, the Mac vs. PC debate is firmly between those who do not want to build their own PC. If you want to do this, Macs are not as attractive.

 

Notice how I don't say "If you can do this"? It really isn't hard. I built my first one a few months ago. Most of the time was spent on research. A year ago I would have had no clue what you were talking about if you said "LGA 775 socket". A few months of getting up to speed on what others have watched progress (I did this at my own pace as I waited for my income tax rebate. If I could have done the research in probably 2 weeks if I wanted to) for decades and I nailed it on my first try.

 

Anyway...we have a video of a small, uninvolved mission in BS running very, very well on hardware that Wags has given basic specs for. This really should be enough to give you an idea on what you need to run it if you've done any PC gaming in the last 10 years and you're familiar with the way flight sims utilize hardware.

[-Skipper-]

The day I can go and buy parts and build my own Mac is the day that seriously consider giving a Mac a try. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't do that can you? To me, the Mac vs. PC debate is firmly between those who do not want to build their own PC. If you want to do this, Macs are not as attractive.

 

It's more than that.

 

Consider Microsoft would allow users only to install Windows on PCs, that they sell in Microsoft-Shops, with a very limited range of hardware available and selling this in a fency case for at least double the normal hardware-price. If they'd then claim their windows runs great on the little hardware-range they sell, people would laugh at their faces and it would be flooded with class-action lawsuits and stuff. Just consider how official lawsuits were opened, because M$ offered their own media-player included into windows, so you CAN have everything out of one hand. When it was recently made possible to install MacOS on any PC by a little dongle for a few bucks, Macintosh started a lawsuit against the developer and even was confirmed, that it is not legal to use that trick.

 

For some odd reason people accept all that with Apple gratefully and praise the monopoly as a fortune to be able to get everything out of one hand - and they're even proud of that touch of rebellion against the M$-monopoly.... :huh:

 

 

Well, everybody has to make his own decision and as it was said, I think we're all grown up and we agree that we can disagree. But for me Apple is the way to go if you don't know enough about hardware to get a PC and too much to be satisfied with a console. :P

Edited September 14, 2008 by -Skipper-

[Wags]

For DCS: Black Shark, XP is the recommended OS, but it will run on Vista as well. However, very large mission will not be playable on Vista due to inefficient ways it handles data compared to XP. In fact, we will probably be releasing a second, 100 mission campaign separately that is XP-only due to the size of the missions. Hopefully this Vista issue will be resolved in the next Vista service pack.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Wags

[-Skipper-]

For DCS: Black Shark, XP is the recommended OS, but it will run on Vista as well. However, very large mission will not be playable on Vista due to inefficient ways it handles data compared to XP. In fact, we will probably be releasing a second, 100 mission campaign separately that is XP-only due to the size of the missions. Hopefully this Vista issue will be resolved in the next Vista service pack.

 

Are you refering to Vista 32 or 64 bit?

[Wags]

Both

[-Skipper-]

Both

 

Thanks, that's interesting as most developer sources I read so far state the opposite. On the other hand, for a 'low'-memory-system (<2Gig), I have no doubt about that, as Vista really needs some space and reserves even more. :smilewink: