empeck Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 For DCS: Black Shark, XP is the recommended OS, but it will run on Vista as well. However, very large mission will not be playable on Vista due to inefficient ways it handles data compared to XP. In fact, we will probably be releasing a second, 100 mission campaign separately that is XP-only due to the size of the missions. Hopefully this Vista issue will be resolved in the next Vista service pack. Are you kidding? Almost two years after Vista release this OS won't be fully supported by DCS? I can't point even one single game released recently with this kind of problems... :doh:
ED Team Groove Posted September 17, 2008 ED Team Posted September 17, 2008 Are you kidding? Almost two years after Vista release this OS won't be fully supported by DCS? I can't point even one single game released recently with this kind of problems... :doh: Don't compare FPS with FlightSims ;) Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
empeck Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Who said I'm comparing flight sims with fps? I'm talking about games, not genres.
RedTiger Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 (edited) Are you kidding? Almost two years after Vista release this OS won't be fully supported by DCS? I can't point even one single game released recently with this kind of problems... :doh: Can you point to one single flight sim released recently that has...oh, I don't know...been released recently? Welcome to Nicheville. Maybe you're new to Nicheville. You can't compare niche games with anything else, really...not even other games in general, no matter the genre. Fighter Ops will supposedly be take great advantage of Vista when it is released in 201X. For now you have Falcon (based on a DX6, I think (?) engine), LOMAC which is DX8 and DCS which is currently using a DX9 LOMAC-esque engine. I'm sure ED would humbly accept a donation similar in size to a mainstream game's budget if you want Vista that bad. /sarcasm They're working with what they have, friend. Eagle Dynamics isn't EA or Activision. They have a budget of time and money they have to stick to. Edited September 17, 2008 by RedTiger
hitman Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Technically there is no reason why DX10 should not be able to run with any other Windows version. This is technically incorrect. DX10 Vista version was tailor made around Vista, hence the reason behind the Users Experience test. One CAN make a DX10 version for Xp, but it would have to be a complete rewrite or at the very least, a major overhaul of the current version. You "cant" use the Vista version of Dx10 on Xp. Thats why no one has been able to make a decent hacked version for Xp as of yet.
hitman Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Can you point to one single flight sim released recently that has...oh, I don't know...been released recently? FSX Accelleration.
empeck Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I repeat - I'm not talking about genres, I'm talkig about games. Flight sim is still a game, complicated, sophisticated, but still a game. I'm not asking about any Vista-specific features like Dx10 or something. I said it's weird that modern game doesn't fully support two years old OS.
vowthyn Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 (...) if you want Vista that bad. /sarcasm (...) What about the RAM usage? I suppose, that DCS could heavily benefit from possibility of adressing more than 3,7GB Ram - that's the limitation for 32bit OS and one of the main reasons why one should want Vista x64.
sobek Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 (edited) Somebody from the ED team said that BS doesn't benefit from so much RAM. Edited September 17, 2008 by sobek Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
RedTiger Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I repeat - I'm not talking about genres, I'm talkig about games. Flight sim is still a game, complicated, sophisticated, but still a game. I'm not asking about any Vista-specific features like Dx10 or something. I said it's weird that modern game doesn't fully support two years old OS. I understand you completely. Its just that for niche games, things can be different. Look at the original Combat Mission. A niche game if there ever was one. It was released with graphics that were probably about 5 years behind what was considered state of the art. The developers could do this since it was niche -- they chose to focus on the gameplay. ED is also niche. They're focusing on BS but have chosen to use an old engine for now. Making it all Vista compatable may be prohibitively expensive time and money wise. Again, all bets are off when it comes to a product for a niche market. :)
Alfa Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Are you kidding? Almost two years after Vista release this OS won't be fully supported by DCS? I can't point even one single game released recently with this kind of problems... :doh: I think you need to read Wag's reply again. This is not about support - DCS runs on Vista systems. The problem is that Vista itself preys more on system ressources than XP and thus leaves less for running complex campaigns. JJ
Boberro Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I think you need to read Wag's reply again. This is not about support - DCS runs on Vista systems. The problem is that Vista itself preys more on system ressources than XP and thus leaves less for running complex campaigns. :thumbup: Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ
some1 Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 (edited) I think you need to read Wag's reply again. This is not about support - DCS runs on Vista systems. The problem is that Vista itself preys more on system ressources than XP and thus leaves less for running complex campaigns. Could you be more specific about this problem? I mean what IS the problem? - less CPU cycles? with modern multicore CPU's that shouldn't be any problem. - less memory for the application? under 64 bit OS like Vista 64 an application that has LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE flag set in exe file can get more memory than under 32 bit OS, even if the GPU RAM is mapped into process address space (which was rather old bug fixed before Vista SP1) FSX is also a flight simulator, it is based on a rather old engine, older than Lock On / DCS. It's a resource hog but it doesn't suffer any further performance penalties when running on Vista. Same with many, many games that are being released anywhere in the world (sure, they are not hardcore flightsims). So why DCS suffers so much, that it can't run big missions? Edited September 17, 2008 by some1 Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil WarBRD, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro
nemises Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Older engines (like FS9) can be re-coded to specifically perform equally as well in Vista (ie. FSX), however they have been significantly re-written to favour vista's api's. The Lock On Engine ala DCS:BS has NOT been optimised for Vista, and is still a DX8 / XP era engine. The focus (judging from what we've seen written by Ed on the subject) has been on delivering the highest fidelity Helo / flight sim in terms of Flight model and avionics that the world has ever seen BUT based on the existing DX8 / xp era engine. They could have shifted focus to a newer engine first instead, but haven't. I think, given the finite resources at their disposal, I am happier to see an AWESOME system like DCS:BS come out on an older non-vista optimised engine, than to wait another 12 / 18 months for the same sim to come out on a newer vista optimised system. I guess though, I'd feel differnt if I was running Vista :P
Boberro Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 (edited) Older engines (like FS9) can be re-coded to specifically perform equally as well in Vista (ie. FSX), however they have been significantly re-written to favour vista's api's. The Lock On Engine ala DCS:BS has NOT been optimised for Vista, and is still a DX8 / XP era engine. The focus (judging from what we've seen written by Ed on the subject) has been on delivering the highest fidelity Helo / flight sim in terms of Flight model and avionics that the world has ever seen BUT based on the existing DX8 / xp era engine. They could have shifted focus to a newer engine first instead, but haven't. I think, given the finite resources at their disposal, I am happier to see an AWESOME system like DCS:BS come out on an older non-vista optimised engine, than to wait another 12 / 18 months for the same sim to come out on a newer vista optimised system. I guess though, I'd feel differnt if I was running Vista :P Agree better faster than wait for Vista optimize, heh Vista is still small percentage of global usage. Doh, I always thought DCS:BS is on DirectX 9 already :smilewink:;) Edited September 18, 2008 by Boberro grammar mistake Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ
GGTharos Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 It is on DX9. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
hitman Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 I thought DX9 was to be implemented in the next engine...its already ON Dx9?? 1
Boberro Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Yes :D Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ
nemises Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 heh...Wag's said they have implemented DX9 code specifically to resolve a self shadowing issue they were having...I don't know if this means they have implemented any other DX9 features into the rendering pipeline or not....it's still a DX8 era engine though I'd say
hitman Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 You cant have 2 dx versions in any single program unless its backwards compatible. Dx8 isnt forward compatible.
sobek Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 You cant have 2 dx versions in any single program unless its backwards compatible. Dx8 isnt forward compatible. But you can use the old effects of DX8 in a DX9 engine. AFAIK apart from the self-shadowing issues, nothing new has come out of the move to DX9. Feel free to correct me on this one though ;) Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
hitman Posted September 17, 2008 Posted September 17, 2008 Yes, you can. Most definately. You can tell that Dx9 lighting effects were used in videos of the guns firing. They look vastly different than in FC. That would be the only exception I can think of...but I honestly didnt know they put Dx9 into the sim until now. I thought that was for future work only.
rattler Posted September 18, 2008 Author Posted September 18, 2008 Vista is a dead issue. I would not like to get into percentages of how many people run XP and how many run Vista. Remember Vista was prepackaged if you bought a brand name computer or laptop but a lot of those have gone back to XP. What you have to look at my friends is Windows 7. Why are sales low for Vista, because it does not meet the needs of the consumer period. Will Windows 7, anyones guess at the moment. Does XP meet what the consumer needs, yes. Why would ED make a flight sim for the minority of the population. Fact is they would not. Flight Sims are unique in their design and therefore can not be even considered in the world of FPS or any other game . I am not an XP or Vista fan, I look at what works well and don't go back in history because as of right now and near future XP works well. Vista has issues or you would not see the bad sales figures. Vista SP1 slight improvement but has many issues especially for the Buisness world and using Personal and Private software and Hardware. Too expensive to even consider change. So we have XP and we are now waiting for a better OS is Windows 7 it, well lets say it should be if they learned anything but again time will tell us. Maybe MS will not be the only OS in town, time again will tell. MY guess is MS will not have a Monopoly they once had come the future in computer OS's. IMHO.
Weta43 Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 Technically there is no reason why DX10 should not be able to run with any other Windows version He meant "Technically there is no reason why DX10 should not have been able to run with any other Windows version" MS chose not to make it compatible with other OS - presumably for the reason I mmentioned above ... Cheers.
hitman Posted September 18, 2008 Posted September 18, 2008 Microsoft has to support Xp until 2010(?), so it is entirely possible to see Dx10 partly in Xp. I wouldnt get my hopes up, though. As much as I hate to say it, but sooner or later, if you want to get the full benefits out of your newest graphics cards, everyone will have to upgrade their operating systems whether you like it or not.
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