RWR Confusion

[Dragon1-1]

The Viggen has implemented an SPO-10-like RWR (only with a few more lights) and it does sound different based on what's illuminating you. It's noisy, but it does its job. IMO, if we get that level of simulation here, we'll be fine. SPO-15 is more capable, but such an advanced RWR is most useful for BVR combat. An SPO-10 would do just fine for pure threat detection. Of course, you'll have to learn the sounds.

 

In fact, I wonder if it could borrow Viggen's sound library. A radar is a radar, unless SPO-10 processes the signal differently, I'd expect them to sound similar on both systems.

[Fri13]

On 4/27/2021 at 9:48 PM, flo57100 said:

 

OK, SPO-15 might have been not chosen because of confidentiality reason . But on the other hand,  SPO-15 is the RWR we have in Su-27/33, MiG-29 and Su-25(T) in game, so why would it available in thèse modules and classified for the Mi-24 ?

 

ED said that they do not fix the SPO-15 in FC3 modules unless there come a reason to make one for a full fidelity module.

 

It likely is a still in operational use, so the law is on the way. And that way they don't need to touch FC3 modules either at all as SPO-15 is not done by ED.

 

Now our hope is that Razbam should keep their word and deliver MiG-23MLA with SPO-15 so we could get it that way to FC3 as well.

 

Anyways it would be nicer to offer both variants in DCS of Mi-24P to simulate different era.

[Fri13]

On 4/29/2021 at 5:01 AM, probad said:

you notice not a single one of them ever asks for downgrades in the name of realism only upgrades that they think will hand them wins

they're scared they can't pull out their own wins

 

There you are wrong.

 

- They have wished a new cloud system so clouds block line of sight in A2A, A2G and S2A combat. 

- They want the new FLIR system to start being affected by weather and temperature changes across the time of day so it wouldn't be so super easy to spot units.

- They want proper targeting pods optical limitations modeled, so finding ground targets become challenge and getting target coordinates.

- They want proper laser systems modeled so you can't just designate target from a 20 nmi and opposite side of vehicle etc.

- They want proper weapons seeker limitations, fuze times, warhead effectiveness etc.

- They want proper counter-measurement systems, flare, chaff, jammers and all.

- They want proper radar detection capabilities, limited ranges, dynamic RCS, weather effects, and all.

- They want proper service times for modules, not just a single year but the complete service history based to technical specifications and not to politics or religion.

- They want improved damage systems that cause more sudden malfunctions middle of flight, that would require to through checklist in start up to minimize those.

- They want more realistic munition flight dynamics, like bang-bang control surfaces and so on.

- They want more realistic G forces effects to virtual pilots, the limited head movements in high G and seriously limited vision when doing so. As well having stamina modeled so one can't keep pulling high G constantly forever, especially on planes without G suite.

- They want better AI for ground units that would understand and react to threats by hiding, concealing, smoking, moving etc. Communicate between units to share threat picture and work together to take them out.

- They want more realistic SAM systems  capabilities and doctrines to make pilots lives miserable and dangerous.

 

They basically want game to become more realistic, more challenging, more risky, more demanding and more about experience of reality than people who just start calling others by names and use circular reasoning to try just stop more challenging and realistic scenarios from happening.

 

There are as well those who want the latest and greatest, but they are as well those who then buy those latest and greatest. Like F/A-18C Lot 20 instead F/A-18A, or A-7 instead F-15E or F-4 instead F-14 or A-10A instead A-10C with latest tech...

 

Luckily we are getting something older on the Russian side so we don't get Mi-28 or KA-52 and all fancy most modern things like west side goes.

 

Mi-24P from 80-90's with old RWR is better than one Mi-35M with glass cockpit and latest electronics.

 

Wishes to see a Mi-24D or V is welcomed with negativity "it is not so effective" when people want the "latest and greatest" with most powerful gun to just make things go "boom".

And instead having a limited Falanga missile, some people want with latest Ataka with 8 km range and all.

 

 

[Czechnology]

So question, does anyone actually have any documentation on how to use the SPO-10's beeps to be able to distinguish radar types? I've definitely noticed that it will beep in patterns and with different tones, but haven't been able to find documentation explaining how to distinguish it.

 

Also, since everyone is bitching about it, what F-16 "Fantasy" loadouts?

 

[Czechnology]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:44 PM, Fri13 said:

 

ED said that they do not fix the SPO-15 in FC3 modules unless there come a reason to make one for a full fidelity module.

 

It likely is a still in operational use, so the law is on the way. And that way they don't need to touch FC3 modules either at all as SPO-15 is not done by ED.

 

Now our hope is that Razbam should keep their word and deliver MiG-23MLA with SPO-15 so we could get it that way to FC3 as well.

 

Anyways it would be nicer to offer both variants in DCS of Mi-24P to simulate different era.

Also to answer it, to my understanding the Mi-24P isn't coming with a more advanced RWR because that's simply what it got. Within the Soviet Union and the time frame of the Mi-24P we're looking at for this module, the Mi-24P only got the SPO-10.
Export versions got a different RWR, and some of the nations that got them installed different RWRs, but the Soviet Mi-24P got the SPO-10 because that's what they had and it didn't need anything better. It tells you the basic information you need, which direction the enemy is hitting you with radar, and if you're being locked, and from what I can tell you can distinguish roughly what kinds of radar are beaming you based on the pulses and tones, but I'm not sure of that.

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Czechnology said:

Also to answer it, to my understanding the Mi-24P isn't coming with a more advanced RWR because that's simply what it got. Within the Soviet Union and the time frame of the Mi-24P we're looking at for this module, the Mi-24P only got the SPO-10.

 

Yeah, ED went for the general featured Mi-24P. The time frame doesn't matter in DCS, the Mi-24P as is was still in operation long time ago as it is today. So instead one specific year (as should always) we look a decades worth of service period and our Mi-24P is presentation of the ones very early because they have only now started to remove the LIPA infra-red jammer on roof and that is reason why we don't get it (because it is said to be effective only against 1st gen MANPADS like Blowpipe that was even in use only mid-70 to mid-80's and only now they have removed it as useless weight). 

 

1 hour ago, Czechnology said:

Export versions got a different RWR, and some of the nations that got them installed different RWRs, but the Soviet Mi-24P got the SPO-10 because that's what they had and it didn't need anything better. It tells you the basic information you need, which direction the enemy is hitting you with radar, and if you're being locked, and from what I can tell you can distinguish roughly what kinds of radar are beaming you based on the pulses and tones, but I'm not sure of that.

 

AFAIK/IIRC the SPO-10 should have just a generic tone for every single radar. As well generic frequency, only capable to separate is the radar in search, lock or guidance mode and what is 90 degree direction.  It does sound odd, but that is at least now what I remember what was said about it in Mig-21Bis forum for its real use. 

[Northstar98]

6 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Yeah, ED went for the general featured Mi-24P. The time frame doesn't matter in DCS, the Mi-24P as is was still in operation long time ago as it is today. So instead one specific year (as should always) we look a decades worth of service period and our Mi-24P is presentation of the ones very early because they have only now started to remove the LIPA infra-red jammer on roof and that is reason why we don't get it (because it is said to be effective only against 1st gen MANPADS like Blowpipe that was even in use only mid-70 to mid-80's and only now they have removed it as useless weight).

 

Well, with the Mi-24P it's a bit different, because the aircraft hasn't changed much from its introduction in the 80s.

 

It just has Ataka, which was integrated in the mid 90s, and the removal of Lipa (which AFAIK was only effective against simple conical scanning IR seekers, such as those found in the SA-7 and FIM-43).

 

But take away Ataka, and you've got an aircraft that is pretty indistinguishable from its original Soviet form (only thing is Lipa, which is kinda superfluous anyway seeing as the only missiles it can counter is the SA-9 and maybe the AIM-9B, I did make a wishlist though for some older missiles).

 

With modern aircraft they go (or should go) more specific because they undergo major block changes or major software changes more frequently - neither of those really apply to the Mi-24P because it really hasn't changed much since its introduction (Ataka integration being the only thing, but it still uses the original controls and equipment AFAIK). 

 

Quote

AFAIK/IIRC the SPO-10 should have just a generic tone for every single radar. As well generic frequency, only capable to separate is the radar in search, lock or guidance mode and what is 90 degree direction.  It does sound odd, but that is at least now what I remember what was said about it in Mig-21Bis forum for its real use. 

 

I wonder if it's just a crude system that just beeps when a sensor (or sensors) detects RADAR emissions, with the sensor receiving being illuminated on the display.

 

Which leads me to think that maybe it would also beep when it picks up a sidelobe (obviously when said sidelobe passes above whatever SNR threshold). As for locking, I would've thought that if it sees a continuous signal from a receiver (like it would if it was picking up STT or an illumination mode - which are both continuous), it would just play a continuous tone.

 

*Note I don't know anything about how this thing actually works, so I am just making guesses there.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Northstar98

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

With modern aircraft they go (or should go) more specific because they undergo major block changes or major software changes more frequently - neither of those really apply to the Mi-24P because it really hasn't changed much since its introduction (Ataka integration being the only thing, but it still uses the original controls and equipment AFAIK). 

 

Yet the modern ones stay as well years untouched. And if some new software fixes or features are added/changed that isn't even simulated and emulated, it doesn't matter.

 

Every update costs money, and everything goes from the budget, be it a single pencil or a roll of toilet paper. But when someone wants to sell a $ 500'000 update that modifies some minor system function, it will be traced.

 

But ED is not in politics or war business, they are not responsible or authorized to perform yearly maintenance, why everyone in reality is forced to fly years without any updates to avionics. Like our hornet is already ~4 years old. It has received all kind fancy stuff. But soon it will be forever as such conditioned...

 

Quote

I wonder if it's just a crude system that just beeps when a sensor (or sensors) detects a RADAR emissions, with the sensor receiving being illuminated on the display.

 

SPO-10 likely is something like that. I have faint recollection that someone would have said that there is just the headphones connection to give generic audio beep for each detection.

 

Quote

Which leads me to think that maybe it would also beep when it picks up a sidelobe (obviously when said sidelobe passes above whatever SNR threshold). As for locking, I would've thought that if it sees a continuous signal from a receiver (like it would if it was picking up STT or an illumination mode - which are both continuous), it would just play a continuous tone.

 

*Note I don't know anything about how this thing actually works, so I am just making guesses there.

 

Considering a that era strategies, you don't really need so much.

 

You you ELINT flights searching all radar stations etc. You have intelligence gathering all the other information.

 

You have in mission planning phase all the latest information on your possession.

So when you are making your flight plan, you know pretty well that where every major threat is considering your mission.

You know what type threats there are expected, so you program your RWR to have proper frequencies with circuit boards. The system gives priorities based the engineers decisions.

 

But when you are flying, you know where you are as navigation is key thing.

And you know about where every threat is and you can locate them on your map with RWR.

 

So basically when you see&hear a blips at given RPM rate and direction, you know what it is as it says so in kneeboard.

 

And you don't need to focus to those that are known when you are out of reach. But you know when you need to push through their expected positions, or when something unexpected happens.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Fri13

[pepin1234]

the ironic part of this Mi-24P aggressor units in USA use the RWR SPO-15 configuration. F-16, Mirage, F-18 at some point have some incompatible payload for the version. But we get what we get in RU side without a solid reason even when export versions for Mi-24P were sold with SPO-15 as picture show in this aggressor Hind:

 

 

  

Edited May 27, 2021 by pepin1234

[26-J39]

RWR ?    Don't care 

My concern is IR threats. 

[SuumCuique]

I have been playing both the KA-50 and Mig-21 quite a bit recently. Any RWR is better than none. It will do it's job. Not nearly as good as the western RWRs or even the SPO-15, but it works. 

[Fri13]

10 hours ago, 26-J39 said:

RWR ?    Don't care 

My concern is IR threats. 

 

IR threats are easy, you see them and you pop some flares...

I see nightmares about ZSU-23-4 just waiting me to fly around the tree that behind it is....

 

And we are receiving the R-60M, someone needs to have good idea for what purpose those are, even with just a couple kilometer effective range... 

The SPO-10 is better than nothing, and it will give at least a 45-90 degree accuracy for expected threat direction, and then state.

 

[BeastyBaiter]

I think the SPO-10 will be sufficient for radar threats from a defensive standpoint but something fancier would be nice if going out to actively hunt SAM/EWR sites. The real problem is going to be IR missiles and the occasional laser guided ATGM. That said, I think radar threats are worse than laser threats in DCS, so I'll take the SPO-10 over the Ka-50's laser warning system any day.