F-14 vs AI

[Spurts]

Hey all.  Just wondering what you all think the best challenge is for 1v1 BFM as far as the AI planes.  Currently beating Ace MiG-29 through guns on a good match or fuel starvation on a bad match (I take off from Batumi and they take off from Kobuleti so we have maximum fighting fuel).

[Jayhawk1971]

F-15C guns only with no head-on shots allowed, or SU-33 with off-boresight IR missiles?

 

Oh, and you should fly in the F-14A, of course.  

 

And another edit: for the ultimate challenge, don't exceed 6.5G 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Jayhawk1971

[Spurts]

2 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

F-15C guns only with no head-on shots allowed, or SU-33 with off-boresight IR missiles?

 

I used to use the F-15C as my opponent but I found it easier to kill than the Fulcrum, granted this was back in 2.5 I think.  I don't want to do missiles because AFAIK the AI will always try for a face shot and not actually merge.

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Spurts:

I used to use the F-15C as my opponent but I found it easier to kill than the Fulcrum, granted this was back in 2.5 I think.  I don't want to do missiles because AFAIK the AI will always try for a face shot and not actually merge.

I find it quite challenging to get behind the F-15C in the F-14A. Going once-circle and shooting it in the face after the first or second pass, on the other hand, works quite well. 

[kengou]

F-14 is a real beast against all the AI planes, even more than the Hornet. It has the thrust to keep up with the AI's ridiculous energy retention and climb rates, and it can do very well 1 or 2 circle.

[Spurts]

2 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

I find it quite challenging to get behind the F-15C in the F-14A. Going once-circle and shooting it in the face after the first or second pass, on the other hand, works quite well. 

Ah, maybe that's what I have to do, go to the A model and lose that great thrust of the B

 

 

1 hour ago, kengou said:

F-14 is a real beast against all the AI planes, even more than the Hornet. It has the thrust to keep up with the AI's ridiculous energy retention and climb rates, and it can do very well 1 or 2 circle.

I agree.  The only thing the Hornet has, kinematically, is that smooth nose authority.  I only take one out of every four "shots" because I can't quite get my nose where I need it, but I have the patience to let it get there eventually.

[lax22]

Fighting against AI in the F14, I have the most problems with the Mig29S.

 

2nd hardest opponent is the F16 in my opinion.

[Spurts]

@lax22 Why the S in particular?  I will have to check what my adversary is currently when I change the B to an A.

[CSL_Ondras]

Hi, most ridiculous, nonsensical AI Ace FM is with Jf-17.. When it comes to AI challange, I train almost exclusively against it with any jet.. anything else is relatively easy.

O.

[captain_dalan]

First off, my impressions on general AI characteristics:
-4th gen planes, especially fast ones (cornering speed above 330-350KIAS) perform better on veteran level then ace level. Especially true for all Vipers, but also F-15's and MiG-29's. This is for gunzos.
-2nd gen planes like the MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21 and F-5, perform best at ace level. They are so "good" (i.e. they never run out of energy or stall) that they are even better then 4th gen planes.

So, for most challenge, do guns only in a 2nd gen jet, set to ACE. If you want to fight 4th gen, set them to Veteran. Personally, in the A F-14, i find the MiG-29 most challenging, followed by the F-16C (non player versions), then the F-15, F-18, and then the Flankers. Never fought an AI JF-17. Only human flown. Out of the 2nd gen, the hardest for me is the MiG-15, then MiG-21, F-5 and then MiG-19, all on ace.

[Spurts]

@captain_dalan thanks for the summary.  A small plane like a MiG-15 would pose additional challenge in that it is a smaller target.  Maybe I will set up AI v AI tourny brackets and the winner gets to be my punching bag.  LOL.

[captain_dalan]

53 minutes ago, Spurts said:

@captain_dalan thanks for the summary.  A small plane like a MiG-15 would pose additional challenge in that it is a smaller target.  Maybe I will set up AI v AI tourny brackets and the winner gets to be my punching bag.  LOL.

My pleasure!

Yeah, they are definitely hard to spot. My first encounter with them was in the F-18 BFM training instant action, 2V2. My initial goals were to not let my wingman die......later on, not to let me die! Eventually i found the best way of spotting them was to climb high at look for glitters against the forest background. It didn't help my AI wingy's chances of survival though.....

Edited May 12, 2021 by captain_dalan

[Spurts]

I had an older PC when I was running 2.6.  I upgraded the PC around the same time 2.7 dropped.  I only bring that up because I don't know which is responsible, but I can spot the smoky MiG-29 visually in VR (old CV1) at near ~20nm now (known general heading, against white clouds, best case conditions), I used to have trouble picking it up past 6nm.  I wonder how bad a MiG-15/F-5 will be

 

[captain_dalan]

2 hours ago, Spurts said:

I had an older PC when I was running 2.6.  I upgraded the PC around the same time 2.7 dropped.  I only bring that up because I don't know which is responsible, but I can spot the smoky MiG-29 visually in VR (old CV1) at near ~20nm now (known general heading, against white clouds, best case conditions), I used to have trouble picking it up past 6nm.  I wonder how bad a MiG-15/F-5 will be

 

Visibility has vastly improved in 2.7 even on a flat screen. Still, i don't expect those tiny Korea era planes to be easy to spot

[Spurts]

So I ran a few tests of AI v AI, Ace v Veteran, same type.  Ace MiG-15s and MiG-19s consistently gunned down the Veterans in a best of 3 engagement.  Veteran MiG-21 and F-15 got one kill against the Ace equivalent and the remaining matched ended in mid-air collision or mutual ejection due to fuel starvation.

 

So far it seems like the SFM has an AoA for best sustained turn.  Ace AI ride that AoA and Veteran AI ride just below.  Neither exceed their given AoA even when the geometry says they should.

[captain_dalan]

49 minutes ago, Spurts said:

So I ran a few tests of AI v AI, Ace v Veteran, same type.  Ace MiG-15s and MiG-19s consistently gunned down the Veterans in a best of 3 engagement.  Veteran MiG-21 and F-15 got one kill against the Ace equivalent and the remaining matched ended in mid-air collision or mutual ejection due to fuel starvation.

 

So far it seems like the SFM has an AoA for best sustained turn.  Ace AI ride that AoA and Veteran AI ride just below.  Neither exceed their given AoA even when the geometry says they should.

Indeed, AI ALWAYS flies a sustained fight, it's why i almost consider it an exploit going one circle against them. The problem with some planes (like the F-16) is that the last time i tested them as AI's, when set to ACE, they tended to fight around 320-350 KIAS, which is a sub optimal airspeed for a 2 circle engagement in that plane. Setting it to veteran, made them fly a bit faster and thus getting better rates. Still prone to one circle cut-offs, but much more challenging when pushing for a solid gun tracking solution. The MiG-29 followed the same rule. I haven't done extensive testing in 2-3 months though, so maybe the AI has changed since then....

[Spurts]

@captain_dalan I'll let you know what I see when I get to those fights.

[captain_dalan]

13 minutes ago, Spurts said:

@captain_dalan I'll let you know what I see when I get to those fights.

Roger that, looking forward to it!

[Spurts]

So what is interesting to me is the disparity between the AoAs.  An Ace Su-27 will hold 10.9 while an Ace F-15/MiG-29 will hold 18-18.5.  This makes the AI Flankers baby seals ripe for clubbing.  The MiG-15 Ace won its best of three matches against the MiG-15 Veteran (2/0), MiG-19 Ace (2/0), F-5 Ace (2/1), JF-17 Veteran (2/0), and MiG-29 Ace (2/0).  It is the tightest turning AI Jet in the game it seems.

[Spurts]

Follow up, after a few fights I can say that it turns so tightly and handles at such low speeds that trying to turn inside it requires a stalled rudder turn (which prevents accurate gun tracking) and a vertical extension needs to be carefully timed because if you wait too long it will pull the nose back up when you dive on it and shoot you in the face.  That 37mm is no joke.  I am having to relearn everything.  What kills the MiG-29 will get you killed against the MiG-15, and I'm pretty sure what will kill the MiG-15 will get you killed against a MiG-29.

[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, Spurts said:

Follow up, after a few fights I can say that it turns so tightly and handles at such low speeds that trying to turn inside it requires a stalled rudder turn (which prevents accurate gun tracking) and a vertical extension needs to be carefully timed because if you wait too long it will pull the nose back up when you dive on it and shoot you in the face.  That 37mm is no joke.

True, the fact that the AI never stalls or departs, make authentic tactics that would work against it IRL, hard to pull. Not impossible.....just......hard....er.......

[illegal1984]

I sometimes fly a custom mission I cooked up for fights against the MIG-29. If you are doing guns only, Dalan's advice in pretty sound in general. Instead, I do full loads on both jets. 2 x AIM-9, 2 or 3 x AIM-7, 2 xAIM-54 and tanks. For the MIG-29 start out with it at your 3 or 9 o'clock within 3-4 miles. Arm the MIG with 4 or more R-73s but no tanks. 

 

Don't do anything until Jester calls the MIG. He will probably be in your 5-6-7 by then. I like it because it requires me to get and have to maintain energy to evade his first one or two shots but then I have to react quickly and slow down to get back behind him. If he doesn't fire immediately at you, play around with distance a bit. The AI has a bad habit of switching between radar lock and then switching back to R-73 if you immediately put him back on 3 or 9 and dive for energy. Probably simulating beaming. If you are feeling really bold, switch the MIG-29 for a Mirage 2000. Way easier to kill with guns, but those Magics are much harder to evade. Even harder than the AIM-9X in my opinion, once they are tracking on you.

 

Guns only, same loadout with the F-14 but try fighting a clean F/A-18 or MIG-29. I don't really believe in Guns only fights, but they are fun nonetheless. You can start up defensive, but in guns only I don't think it matters nearly as much once you dodge the first burst. No where near the same requirements balancing energy management with your tactical position. 

 

Honestly, though after a while AI gets predictable. Try different scenarios while starting out in the defensive, that's my advice.

[Slant]

F-16C is the only challenge. That dude from the instant action mission. Those things are tiny and apparently they can keep going in the vertical 2C all day long. Yes, I know, there's faster ways to kill 'em, but I am try to win that way for practice.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Slant

[captain_dalan]

8 hours ago, Slant said:

F-16C is the only challenge. That dude from the instant action mission. Those things are tiny and apparently they can keep going in the vertical 2C all day long. Yes, I know, there's faster ways to kill 'em, but I am try to win that way for practice.

 

At least i can buy a clean Viper doing vertical carousels all day long, but a MiG-15?

[Spurts]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

At least i can buy a clean Viper doing vertical carousels all day long, but a MiG-15?

the joy of an AI that never stalls