Debunking RVE MOD myths.

[RvEYoda]

Yoda, I wasnt refering to your post...

 

 

but I was the one making the comment, who was the other guy? :)

[X-man]

No, I was talking about the trend of the thread, and used xbox as example, I wasnt quoting...

 

Infact, I didnt and cannot even find your post about xbox :)

Edited October 6, 2008 by X-man

[PoleCat]

Well, I dont think 46 people make up the whole community, nor do I think that everyone that plays LO comes to these forums...It seems though, that the one that DO come here, votes for the LRM...

 

I never said that 46 people made up the whole community but those posting here are the people who are involved enough to care to state thier opinion on it and most of them voted for it.

 

The way this whole thread is going towards is; If you dont fly with LRM, you're nothing more than a stupid gamer who can go fly with xbox instead. Call it what it is, Lockon with or without LRM.

 

AFAIK you are the only one who is seeing it this way. I certainly do NOT look down on any one, whether they choose to fly with LRM or not. I am just rendereing my opinion like everyone else.

Tell me how realistic it is to get punished for maddogging an amraam? Good for gameplay, yes! Realistic no...

 

Not sure on this one specific point X-man, I would let smarter people then I field that question as it relates to LRM. I was only stating that LRM eliminates or "deals with" as best it can "well known exploits" that are pretty unfair and in this way both levels the playing field and at the same time makes the sim more realistic.

 

Again, Im for the LRM, I just dont like the tone of this discussion...

 

Glad that you are for LRM. Sorry you feel this way about the tone of the discussion as I see nothing wrong with it. Again no offense intended or meant to any one.

 

Out

Edited October 6, 2008 by PoleCat

[Pilotasso]

The LRM will split the community, it's just a matter of how many in each camp. Just look at the intense HL discussion the other day.

 

Im for the LRM, but I dont like these "lockon lite" and "lockon real" expressions...

 

The community has been split for a long time my friend. Some of the "renegades" (:D ) are known people. They can either respect others online or stop playing. There were lots of people saying exploiters were a minority, now the time has come to prove this.

 

I wish I had donne this MOD before myself isntead of just words. it would have vindicated my claims in the best manner.

[X-man]

There were lots of people saying exploiters were a minority, now the time has come to prove this.

Please define exploiter. How often must a guy use an exploit to be called an exploiter?

Edited October 6, 2008 by X-man

[Pilotasso]

That has been discussed to death and some poeple say there is no proof in the aircraft manuals that its an exploit thus accepting them by default. Thats an awfull way to "prove" a point and I dont want to go that way again.

 

besides you know the list of the 4 main items of exploit as well as I do.

[A.S]

Please define exploiter...

 

 

someone who can jump in a server (like 169th for example with hills and even awacs)...ignore almost every missile shot on him ...and find and knockout everything what passes his way without even turnin on his radar once...

 

you might say..wtf=? ..... well i can do excatly this....but not cuz im very inventive...cuz i have seen so many things meanwhile to understand what is possible and what might have been used b4.

but i wont and i hate this lame kind of playing (for what)

 

and you dont have to be very smart to analyse someones approach in his flight looking tacview or track ..how he is thinking or flying ..if you know these things

 

First there was a publishing from yoda (exploit video) whats wrong

Now he made something what fixes it.

 

Would you prefer that these things keep in secret .....only for own usage and might be also a reason not to participate in squad vs squad matches cuz they cant trust anyone....cuz they know how things can be done.

 

there are quiete alot things going around....discoverd and given around from this and that squadron to that squadron....things here what you can change...things there you could use.... etc etc etc

 

and honestly ..if i would just speak bout all what i ve collected over time from others and would publish this... NOONE would have trust OR fun flying lockon anymore.....but thats not the right thing to do.

The right thing is to make sure ..that these things just dont work.

 

you might say...exploit is not an exploit as such if both fly under same conditions and can use it or are forced to deal with same issue ..

 

ok ..thats a fair question, but then we dont have to fly BVR as such..then we just open a new thread as "Lockon game tricks" and end up on pages like this http://www.gamecheats.eu/ ...and we say...hey, its just a game.

 

So the choice is: approaching the sim in the most professional way we can or letting it go as .."its just a game" who cares ..lets have fun.

 

choice is yours......but guess what gets boring faster?

 

defining exploiter is really not easy..and i tell you why....some are smart, knowing these things..sharing them "pssst but dont tell anybody"...and using it intentionally..... some dont even know that they exploit the game here and there cuz they dont know better....

therefore its not fair to accuse anybody...but thing are off...we all know it.....we all know how to use them (dont we ,) ...now its time to think bout it honestly.

 

as yoda posted before:

 

Nevertheless after many

years online Lo bvr turned into not who was using proper tactics or methods of engagement, but rather who

knew the most about the game code and could exploit it.

 

That is the core that LRM attempts to change.

The person who reads most theory and exploits his opponents weaknesses

(rather than exploiting unforseen weaknesses in the game code) wins.

 

That is also how you can bring this knowledge with you to the next gen flight sims that will

undoubtedly require more realistic tactics and approaches to engagements

Edited October 6, 2008 by A.S

[RvEYoda]

.

 

Exploiter : Someone who wants to beat his opponent by using unrealistic and

unanticipated flaws in software game code, instead of using flaws in his opponent's tactics.

Sometimes they are aware of it, sometimes not (both sides).

 

 

EDIT off topic: On a sidenote i don't really have a problme with canyon + awacs flying.....it's fun to do.

However I have a problem with it when someone uses a button to instantly dump 60 chaff when he pops

up and/or then barrell rolls 8 amraams almost point blank...Putting an override ET in the face of the other guy..

Thats just lame :) (it's also very easy to do). Or what about firing 4 amraams maddog in a box shape from 20 nm..

Maddoged Aim-120s should not be used for bvr....Ever see that word in the lower right if your HUD?

Says VISUAL ... and the circle in your hud (should, but doesn't) indicate where you can maddog at a visual

contact for the amraam to have a chance at finding him.

 

.

Edited October 6, 2008 by =RvE=Yoda

[A.S]

.

 

Or what about firing 4 amraams maddog in a box shape from 20 nm..

 

 

Hehe ..now thats COOL T ruly ..isnt it .....:harhar:

[RedTiger]

You know, the more I think about this mod, the more irritated I become, despite my previous post. Not because I don't like this mod. Far from it. What irritates me is that it seems like there's about 20-40 people who, for all practical purposes, are the only known LOMAC players in the world. They all discuss stuff on these boards. Most of them also happen to fly organized multiplayer on an established set of servers. We all have a general understanding of what is realistic and what isn't, but the best thing that anyone can do is a LUA script that affects multiplayer only and only on one server.

 

Don't ask me where I'm going with this one, because I'm not so sure myself. :huh: Maybe this is just venting? I'm man enough to admit that this may just be jealousy. ;) If this sim works like almost all other sims/video games, there's a vocal minority of people on the forums who play organized multiplayer and a vast majority of others who don't post and don't do multiplayer or do so, but anonymously. So instead of a patch or some other file that is easily located and downloadable by the general public, to repeat -- the best that can be done is a LUA mod on a single multiplayer server.

 

There have been arguements against modifying the sim this way in the past. The whole notion of opening the source code has been labled as anathema to most who play online since the fear is that there'd be multiple versions and no standard to play by. Well, that is EXACTLY what has been done here. No longer anathema, now its the greatest thing since sliced bread. No one cared about whether or not the AI would be affected when they argued against the opening of the code. They were worried about how it would affect the PLAYERS. Ironically, this mod has zero effect on the AI, its ONLY affects the players!

 

Like I said, I don't even know where I'm going with this. Frankly, I think this mod is great and I am amazed that so much was able to be done with so little! Those that put work into this did so with the best intentions and obviously did it out of their love of the sim. Maybe this is me finally realizing why there have been some strong cries in the past to open the source code. One of the biggest barriers to further opening the game to modification to me has always been those in the community who are against it. I'm not so sure that reason is valid anymore.

 

Maybe now I fully "get it" when it comes to some of the complaining done post-DCS anouncement about the perceived abandonment of LOMAC. Some people decided to address the issue, but they could only do it in a way that really cannot be universally enjoyed. Would they have bothered to change the entire sim, AI and all, if they had the ability? My guess would be no. I know you all did what you could and you did it for those who probably will benefit the most...I'm 100% sure of that this mod is in the hands of those that can fully appreciate it. I just wish more could be done. :(

Edited October 6, 2008 by RedTiger

[RvEYoda]

Redtiger maybe I understand you wrong...

But the mod IS just a LUA serverside. It doesn't require any client

to do anything....

 

All you need to do to try it?

Join RvE or 104th dedi in HL.

 

Yes i also wish more could be done, but right now

we are very limited by lua. I tried all sorts of tricks so far,

but if you have any suggestions on how to make LUA do

more please email or PM me!

 

I wish I could put a cross in HUD to indicate IFF, but LUA doesn't allow

I wish I could remake flight envelopes for missiles and tweak plane performance..Lua doesnt allow.

etc.

etc

.

.

 

 

EDIT ......hmm perhaps I totally misunderstand you and you want this to be single player too? :).

Well i have a surprise. I may be able to provide a patch soon that will enhance coop and single player gameplay,

but not intended for team v team MP, though very differently from what LRM mod does.

Edited October 6, 2008 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

The LRM mod attempts to stop people from using certain exploits in the game; the purpose isn't so much to call those cheats, as it is this:

 

In air to air combat, it is necessary to respect a missile launched at you and defend against it. In general, no pilot will go head to head with a missile and risk his life.

 

In LOMAC, this happens all the time because there are very high probability ways of evading the missile head-on. This is not realistic behaviour, and this is what LRM attempts to do: It attempts to force combattants to respect missile shots to save their aircraft, and to go defensive when fired on.

 

This preserves the actual, factual 'first shot' requirement that all air forces try to achieve of their fighters.

 

It now causes tactics to matter more than they usually do in LOMAC, as arriving at a superior position will now cause you to have an advantage as opposed to it mattering little, with the enemy preferring to turn NOSE ON you because he can dodge your missiles head on, and retalliate.

 

That's right. You should NOT have a fair chance of retaliation if you botched your BVR aproach. You SHOULD be at a big disadvantage. And depending on what aircraft you take against what sort of aircraft your opponent takes, you WILL have to change your combat tactics and aproach.

 

The LRM mod attempts to inject some semblance of realism into the BVR (and in some cases WVR) arena that does not currently exist in LOMAC. The LRM mod doesn't claim to offer you real missile/radar/whatever performance, it only claims to force some semblance of realistic behavior. That is all.

[A.S]

EXCATLY:thumbup:

[Pilotasso]

Tactics still matter without the MOD but you are required to be 3 times as better as the guy exploiting the game. There may be apparently only 40 known gamers discussing this but nothing stops the rest from participating, furthermore all others are less likely to be exploiting the game since taking advantage of the bugs also requires people to be reading this forums and have a minimum of experience playing this SIM.

[Mustang]

^^^ well put GG :thumbup:

[RvEYoda]

Tactics still matter without the MOD but you are required to be 3 times as better as the guy exploiting the game.

 

 

good point :).

[Pilotasso]

The MOD also makes it more viable to do multi engagements with the F-15 wich was largely nulified by the missile efecteviness and unfriendly radar operation in stock LOMAC.

 

This is something that has been practicaly thrown out of the SIM since 1.02. Dual kills are now possible without superhuman abilites, though 4 is still extremely difficult.

 

Multi engagement has been brought back as factor in the equation of BVR combat. Realy noticeable.

[RedTiger]

Redtiger maybe I understand you wrong...

But the mod IS just a LUA serverside. It doesn't require any client

to do anything....

 

All you need to do to try it?

Join RvE or 104th dedi in HL.

 

Yes i also wish more could be done, but right now

we are very limited by lua. I tried all sorts of tricks so far,

but if you have any suggestions on how to make LUA do

more please email or PM me!

 

I wish I could put a cross in HUD to indicate IFF, but LUA doesn't allow

I wish I could remake flight envelopes for missiles and tweak plane performance..Lua doesnt allow.

etc.

etc

.

.

 

 

EDIT ......hmm perhaps I totally misunderstand you and you want this to be single player too? :).

Well i have a surprise. I may be able to provide a patch soon that will enhance coop and single player gameplay,

but not intended for team v team MP, though very differently from what LRM mod does.

 

With your edit, you are a bit closer to what I meant. Yeah, I'd like it to be for single player but its also the principle of thing too. I could try to rehash it but I did my best to be clear in my original post. We have some fixes for the sim but due to limitations, at the moment they are multiplayer only and limited to your server.

 

If you have a similar enhancement for single player and coop, consider this my /sign for interest in it. If you created such a thing and put it up for grabs at Lockonfiles, I think you'd be surprised at how many downloads you'd get. :)

[GGTharos]

Unfortunately the reason this works is that it affects your own aircraft.

LUA does not provide access to functions that would affect the AI. :(

 

This mod is MP-only by the limitation of the tools at hand.

[RedTiger]

Unfortunately the reason this works is that it affects your own aircraft.

LUA does not provide access to functions that would affect the AI. :(

 

This mod is MP-only by the limitation of the tools at hand.

 

Actually, I wouldn't mind flying with these changes. The AI already is maxed out on genius stupidity and I don't see how this would make it any worse for the player. I'm interested to see what =RvE=Yoda has in store, if he decides to pursue it.

[Boneski]

Red has hit it on the head.

 

GGT your points about nose hot / Fox tactics make sense if this were a discussion about real-life. Many guys don’t play Lock ON or any sim realistically.

 

That’s fact. It has nothing to do with exploits. The most realistic players are the amazing Aero formation teams and off line users. Online guys think they are playing more realistically then everyone else because they feel the act of flying with other humans is playing realistically by default. There is so much more to it then even the best pc game can simulate.

 

To play realistically you have to be realistic about what you are playing. This is not an attack on this or any so called realism mod. Just putting observations out there.

 

With that said, let’s set up common ground by saying that this mod has nothing to with real-life... Let’s agree that combat flight gaming issues have zero to do with real-life.

 

Not saying that can't happen... Black Shark looks like it has crossed over into what can be considered a trainer more so then a game. It looks to be very realistic in its presentation. Much like other Eagle projects)

 

The great thing about this community is the fact that people do know so much. The ones that have shown they understand the limited link between real-life and gaming have really added to this product with their mods. This mod included. But it should be presented more as a fairness mod more so then a realism mod.

 

Now looking at this mod as a fairness mod that changes how the game operates because the owners of Multiplayer servers want things to work in this way makes way more sense then tagging this mod as something that going to add realism. It's also fair to say that adding fairness to one area of the program will have an effect on others.

 

Question:

What happens when a player adds an AI wingman to his element while in Multiplayer? In affect that nullifies the mod right?

 

The AI will still have the same capabilities as before correct?

 

So now if the guy that you are doing BVR work against with has an AI wingman and tasks it as the shooter then what?

 

Will there be a new script limiting your ability to add AI to your element?

 

IT seems like this script will also limit how you can react. So in effect you have your hands tied by the server side script that only effects you… seems like an odd thing to do.??

 

-Bones

Edited October 6, 2008 by Boneski

[RvEYoda]

Yes boneski, lets just ignore everything, stop playing "simulators" and

go pick out the old monopoly set and invite the neighbors.

 

On a serious note, Some of us, enjoy the idea of ways to enforce accepted

and interesting methods that are commonly accepted as more realistic ways of

doing things. (Hence the name realism mod)

All over again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUP5GzHIojU

Edited October 6, 2008 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

I see this really needs to be cleared up, so here we go.

 

LRM is concerned with making human behavior more realistic in BVR and WVR than it has been in LOMAC, in an MP environment.

 

LRM is NOT concerned with the AI (in fact, it cannot be).

 

IN general, public servers do NOT add AI elements to player elements.

 

If someone would like to use the LRM mod for single play, that's great - it will be a tougher fight for them, but they'll learn a more realistic approach to BVR.

[RedTiger]

Red has hit it on the head.

 

*snip*

 

 

Wait...what?

 

Maybe I misunderstand you, but if you're equating what I said with your opinion, I think you misunderstand me.

 

I'm all for this type of thing. "To play realistically you have to be realistic about what you are playing"? Why thank you, yes I do. This mod looks like its trying to force people to play by the same rules that some already choose to play by. Think of it as a glimpse of what will be ;). *I* play by those rules, even to the point of gimping myself. If you do your best to use your aircraft the way it was intended to be used, with all its limitations you will see that things can be plenty realistic.

 

Something as simple as flying a MiG-29 and capping your altitude range to 2k-20k feet to simulate your look-down limitations and side lobe problems or loading your Russian planes with mostly R-27Rs to simulate rarity gives you an entirely new perspective on this sim. I even go so far as to only use evasion tactics that I know from reality. No berioza jinking at the last minute.

Edited October 6, 2008 by RedTiger

[RedTiger]

 

If someone would like to use the LRM mod for single play, that's great - it will be a tougher fight for them, but they'll learn a more realistic approach to BVR.

 

Bingo! :)