DCS MiG-23 development update

[WarbossPetross]

21 час назад, Silver_Dragon сказал:

RAZBAM discord Mig-23MLA

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/1196617030233751573/1199647494380998688

 

 

[Кош]

nullPulse mode at low alt, ground clutter.

[pepin1234]

I love the radar representation on the Hud. I would like to know how they will implement the GCI.

[okopanja]

Very nice HUD

Will there be a GCI operator AI?

Is the human seat for GCI operator planned?

[Кош]

16 минут назад, okopanja сказал:

Very nice HUD

Will there be a GCI operator AI?

Is the human seat for GCI operator planned?

Both planned. To some degree, Soviet GCI is similar to French TAF which is already implemented in Mirage 2000.

[tryphon77]

Hello Koj. What do you mean by "TAF" ? Regards 

[Harlikwin]

4 hours ago, tryphon77 said:

Hello Koj. What do you mean by "TAF" ? Regards 

Thats the GCI system that was trialed on the M2k but never adopted. Its in the game.

 

 

18 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

I love the radar representation on the Hud. I would like to know how they will implement the GCI.

 

Hopefully better than TAF... Lazur controllers could direct and coordinate flights quite well. Meanwhile all TAF in the game does is give you steering commands to the nearest enemy.

[Кош]

5 часов назад, Harlikwin сказал:

Thats the GCI system that was trialed on the M2k but never adopted. Its in the game.Hopefully better than TAF... Lazur controllers could direct and coordinate flights quite well. Meanwhile all TAF in the game does is give you steering commands to the nearest enemy.

Lazur flight pattern building equations are known so it's not just target marker or even proportional nav. It has also threat analisis feature(RED45 got into RAID1628 radar FOV and range and changed icon), GCI officer must work out a plan and that's more complex than just "give me a list of targets, guide me an intercept of target x". 

[Harlikwin]

6 hours ago, Кош said:

Lazur flight pattern building equations are known so it's not just target marker or even proportional nav. It has also threat analisis feature(RED45 got into RAID1628 radar FOV and range and changed icon), GCI officer must work out a plan and that's more complex than just "give me a list of targets, guide me an intercept of target x". 

Yeah, I know how it worked IRL. I have my doubts it will work anything like that in DCS. 

[Кош]

В 16.02.2024 в 17:48, Harlikwin сказал:

Yeah, I know how it worked IRL. I have my doubts it will work anything like that in DCS. 

It's not hard to recreate what GCI computer does. But what GCI human should do gets me wondering too.

[JunMcKill]

On 2/18/2024 at 10:03 AM, Кош said:

It's not hard to recreate what GCI computer does. But what GCI human should do gets me wondering too.

The Cuban radar operators in Angola were very good, in fact the engagement in which a couple of MIG-23s managed to hit a South African Mirage F1 with an R-60 and the other escaped unharmed, according to the cuban pilot himself, the support of the Radar control personnel was decisive for said encounter.

[Harlikwin]

On 2/18/2024 at 8:03 AM, Кош said:

It's not hard to recreate what GCI computer does. But what GCI human should do gets me wondering too.

I'm talking about the GCI "human" bit. Pointing you at a target is trivial. Setting up an ambush using several planes is a whole other ball of wax. 

And while Razbam does "good stuff" (tm), they are still likely gonna be limited by DCS itself in this case. Though I wonder if a "jester" like GCI where you ask it to setup different kinds of intercepts on different targets might work well. Or adding some sort of F10 map GCI functionality for humans.

Edited February 20 by Harlikwin

[Кош]

8 часов назад, Harlikwin сказал:

Setting up an ambush using several planes is a whole other ball of wax. 

Computer has built in ambush profiles with elastic parameters it changes automatically. Human must select targets and profiles while asessing the tactical picture and that kind of decision making is problematic.

[pepin1234]

 

 

Edited February 22 by pepin1234

[WarbossPetross]

2 часа назад, Northstar98 сказал:

RAZBAM WIP MiG-23MLA, from Discord:

 

[JunMcKill]

22 hours ago, WarbossPetross said:

On 3/11/2024 at 6:52 AM, Northstar98 said:

RAZBAM WIP MiG-23MLA, from Discord:

 

Tell them to finish the thing, I'm tired of trailers

[Flogger23m]

I wonder what will be easier to fly in combat, this or the Mirage F1? Waiting on the F-15E to get more polished up as well before buying.

[lmp]

8 minutes ago, Flogger23m said:

I wonder what will be easier to fly in combat, this or the Mirage F1? Waiting on the F-15E to get more polished up as well before buying.

Well, the MiG-23 can be quite quirky:

Besides the above, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand the wing sweep is set entirely manually, unlike in the Tomcat. Additionally, you can't really change it under a lot of Gs, so you're stuck with whatever you had when you started the break unless you're prepared to unload. That's one thing you don't have to worry about in the Mirage.

I have a feeling the Mirage will be easier to fly in the sense that it won't surprise new pilots as much. But whether it'll be easier to win fights in, I don't know.

[pepin1234]

7 hours ago, lmp said:

Well, the MiG-23 can be quite quirky:

Besides the above, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand the wing sweep is set entirely manually, unlike in the Tomcat. Additionally, you can't really change it under a lot of Gs, so you're stuck with whatever you had when you started the break unless you're prepared to unload. That's one thing you don't have to worry about in the Mirage.

I have a feeling the Mirage will be easier to fly in the sense that it won't surprise new pilots as much. But whether it'll be easier to win fights in, I don't know.

Seem you want to compare Mirage F-1 vs MiG-23. They are different configuration and have to do a lot adaptability and practice to get a good level to feel that you can get into a comparison. Probably The learning curve is bigger in Mig, but that doesn’t mean is worst. 
 

I believe the only case both face each other in the life of both aircraft was in the Angola vs South Africa air combat encounters. The acceleration of the Mig was stunning in comparison and the maneuverability was good inside that fighter Gen category. Encounters were not many but few of them was enough to get to know Migs were a serious threat. All you can read about trashing the MiG-23 is propaganda and disinformation. There were weak parts on MiGs but it is a matter of mastering your weapon before get the desired results. Same in every other weapons.

I will say using SAHR missiles and tactics of that time, MiG-23 were a beast. The Syrian Air Force did not perform well on that bird and Soviets weapons delivery have fault on that too. So is nothing to do in that regard other than proof yourself in a different scenario.

Edited March 16 by pepin1234

[lmp]

2 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

Seem you want to compare Mirage F-1 vs MiG-23

I wanted to try to answer the question posted above: which is easier to fly in combat. I don't know what propaganda and disinformation has to do with anything? I posted a video of a pilot recalling his personal experience in the aircraft, detailing its aerodynamic quirks, and I added what little I know about how the swing wings work in the Flogger and how that complicates the human machine interface. My conclusion is similar to yours - the MiG will probably have a steeper learning curve. I didn't make any statements about how the combat capabilities of these two compare.

[Кош]

7 часов назад, lmp сказал:

I wanted to try to answer the question posted above: which is easier to fly in combat. I don't know what propaganda and disinformation has to do with anything? I posted a video of a pilot recalling his personal experience in the aircraft, detailing its aerodynamic quirks, and I added what little I know about how the swing wings work in the Flogger and how that complicates the human machine interface. My conclusion is similar to yours - the MiG will probably have a steeper learning curve. I didn't make any statements about how the combat capabilities of these two compare.

Model we are getting is significantly lighter, can pull more G's, has better FCS, completely different sensor suite and autopilot than the one USA got from Egypt and discussed in the video. As for wing sweep, you are not supposed to adjust it in combat. Throw into mid detent after gear and flaps up and stay in it unless you need to go mach 2.

Edited March 16 by Кош

[lmp]

All of what you mentioned clearly affects the capabilities of the aircraft but does it affect the ease of use? Is the MLA less susceptible to compressor stalls? Are spins more benign? Have the elevons and/or rudder been redesigned to prevent (overpower) this very scary uncommanded roll scenario described in the video? I'm genuinely asking, I'm somewhat familiar with the MF, not so much the later versions.

As for the wing sweep, I agree it shouldn't be a problem most of the time but there are perhaps a few scenarios where this could catch you out - if, say, a high speed bvr develops into a dogfight or you're carrying wing tanks. It's one extra thing to keep track of.

[Flogger23m]

21 hours ago, lmp said:

Well, the MiG-23 can be quite quirky:

Besides the above, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand the wing sweep is set entirely manually, unlike in the Tomcat. Additionally, you can't really change it under a lot of Gs, so you're stuck with whatever you had when you started the break unless you're prepared to unload. That's one thing you don't have to worry about in the Mirage.

I have a feeling the Mirage will be easier to fly in the sense that it won't surprise new pilots as much. But whether it'll be easier to win fights in, I don't know.

 

That is correct, at least for most variants. This is also the MLA, which is better than the older variations but does not have the generally improved handling of the MLD. Still better than the older or export variations like the MS. Will be tough to choose between the two, though I quite like both planes.

Though I suppose if I go with an older plane it will probably end up being the F-14 or F-4; maybe both.

Once F-15E gets more polished I will be getting that though. May get the AV8B once that goes on sale. I also hope Razbam will someday do a more modern Mirage 2000-5 variant.

[Кош]

For sure it will require the user to "do the pilot thing". Those who are used to F-18 "in any situation roll 90 degrees and pull" may forget about all this all along. As for wing tanks they are limited to fully extended wing, ie 0.8M max speed.

Edited March 17 by Кош

[Кош]

Ok, for the engine. To avoid compressor stall, above mach 1.5 engine control will ignore throttle handle position setting engine rpm below 97%. It is forbidden to exceed 18 degrees indicated AOA and 4 g's above mach 2 for longer than 2 seconds, in other cases intake automatics gets you covered.

MiG-23 does not have ailerons or elevons. It rolls with interceptors to avoid all the reversal effects, at wing at 72 it rolls with differential stab only.

FCS on 23ML, 23MLA and 23MLD is the same SAU-23AM. MLD introduces a stick shaker for critical AOA approach so you can ride the very edge easier. 

Stall approach shaking is present at wing 16. At 45 and 72 aircraft usually just suddenly goes into one of 4 types of spins but FCS must be off or overpowered. At the beginning of spin there are 1-2 seconds when it can be stopped instantly by full opposite pedal, center(white line on dash) and slightly forward stick.

In general, if you keep agreeing with FCS you're gonna be fine. If you find youself in need of a stallfight in a MiG-23 - reconsider your tactics.

Edited March 17 by Кош