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Level 5 pipper shows wrong or unrealistic amount of lead


darkman222
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As my post was not moved to the bug section, I have to start a new thread about it here. Sorry for the double post.

Original post was in the general F16 Forum:

 

Trackfile for this video here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iibpqwjmknsvyzb/mobettameta's Dogfight Arena v1.20-20210520-002317 gun pipper1.trk?dl=0

This happens at 26:50 min in the track file (counting from track file start) The level 5 pipper drifts away, goes crazy, then disappears.

 

 

Trackfile: https://www.dropbox.com/s/939hdy5eci9vhmk/mobettameta's Dogfight Arena v1.21-20210522-162239 gun pipper3.trk?dl=0

Happens at 4:54 mins in the track file.

The level 5 gun pipper behaves normal before and after second 23 in the video.

But if you check second 23 you see the bandit pulls maybe 3 or 4 G but the pipper goes crazy, like it wants to lead for 20 G. The bandit is another F16. So he cant paddle or do anything to cheat by over g-ing. Hence he can pull just 9 Gs but the pipper falls way below the minus symbol which stands for a target manovering with 9Gs.

 

These are not just 2 exceptions where the pipper fails. I have couple more of these, but the ones I posted are the most obvious ones that something seems to be off.

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  • ED Team

Hi, sadly the track replay will not cooperate, it does not play back correctly as it is so large. 

I will ask the team about this issue however

 

thanks

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  • 2 weeks later...

@BIGNEWYHere is another video, hopefully this time with a working track file. The frame counter shows the time in the track file from start of the track file.

3 parts, separated by half a second black.

 

1st part: I am sitting right behind the bandit, but the level 5 pipper just does crazy nonsense. This is really embarassing because in every other DCS fighter it would have been a perfect kill.

2nd part: Other people claimed it could be that the pipper does not work correctly due to a too high speed. In that part I am at 350 kts CAS which is the perfect operating airspeed for the gun. But the pipper just disappears.

3rd part: You see the bandit pushing the nose down. He did not roll before, so he does maybe -2 G. And the pipper turns upside down goes up the HUD maybe for -7 G.

 

Note: All this happened in one session of just 6 minutes dogfighting.

 

Trackfile: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fu7ilpwfnivp9ip/JustDogFight_Caucasus_v2.7b-20210618-005755f16 how to hit anything.trk?dl=0

 

 


Edited by darkman222
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  • 1 month later...

I posted that video in another thread already, but as I am very interested in this topic, because I am often playing on a guns only dogfight server, I decided to draw more attention to it in this separate thread about it.

 

It seems like the Level 5 pipper appears exclusively at exact 4000 ft distance. Regardless of my own airspeed or kinetic probability for the rounds to hit the target.

 

You can see the pipper being displayed although the shot was kinetically impossible at a range of 4000 ft and a speed of 800 kts. But in the second test, at a speed of 300 kts, the pipper disappeared again at a distance greater than 4000 ft. But the bullets were able to reach and hit the target. So the pipper appearing or disappearing is not related to if the rounds are able to hit the target or not.

 

Question: Is it realistic? Shouldnt the pipper stay visible until there is really no physical possibility for the bullets to hit? I know the second test is unrealistic, but you see that I had to guess where to fire without the pipper. Wouldnt that be a disadvantage to hide the pipper in that case? Or is it just not implemented yet and the pipper should represent if a shot opportunity is kinetically possible or not?

 

What it is doing right now is stubbornly being displayed when under 4000 ft and hidden at distances over 4000 ft. Why would you do that and take it away from the pilot? A fighter pilot should be able to have a look at the distance in the HUD and judge by himself if the shot is possible or not, right?

Also I think if the pipper was displayed as soon as the FCR can calculate a solution, despite if the rounds may or may not reach the target, will give the pilot more time to prepare for the shot while he is getting in range.

 

 


Edited by darkman222
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  • darkman222 changed the title to EEGS Level 5 pipper appears always at a distance of exact 4000 ft - even if kill is possible at longer range - realistic?

I am not really sure if those two topics are necessarily related although the threads have been merged. One issue is incorrect lead and the other issue is that the level 5 pipper is just being switched on and off at a distance greater than 4000 ft. But who am I to judge...

 

Anyway @BIGNEWY this post is the end of my investigations, I promise 😉 because I know two things now. The pipper showing incorrect lead is not related to my own speed nor to the Gs the opponent is pulling or his speed. In this video you see even at high speeds that the pipper snaps into place where the lead is apparently correct and leads to a successful firing solution.

It happens at the end of the trackfile: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8navpcpkyqaprtb/mobettameta's Dogfight Arena v1.24-20210730-020910 pipper nonsense to make sense.trk?dl=0

 

And watch a short video about the pipper snapping into position where it starts to show correct lead:

 

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@BIGNEWYYou were right, both issues are related.

 

The pipper does jump around like crazy when the bullets have kinetically no chance of hitting the target. I did a split screen with the tacview replay. Although the bandit is just flying 1 G at the moment I fire, the first rounds at 2700 ft distance were out of range.

But the secound round at 2400 ft was in range. So the pipper just jumped to the correct position and the bullets hit perfectly.

 

If you manage to create a situation where the shot is out of range but closer than 4000ft then the pipper is being shown to the player, but it starts jumping around because it cant bring up a valid guns solution. And the calculations return invalid results. My detective work is done at that point 😉

 

 

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  • ED Team

Is anyone able to reproduce this issue in a simple single player mission? 
When I tests all seems ok to me, I have asked the team to take a look also

 

thanks

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Yes because the enemy aircraft type does not make any difference. You and your opponent have to be closer than 4000 ft and start at at a speed that makes the shot kinetically impossible, then transition into a distance to the opponent, where the rounds actually can hit him.

 

I have prepared everything as a ZIP file. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wf6pq7fjsjsilfo/gun_pipper_highspeed.zip?dl=0

 

Here is what you do:

Jump in one of the two *.miz missions and follow the F16 flying in front of you. Maintain a distance of 3500 ft as good as possible. After 2 minutes the F16 in front will hit the breaks, because he reached the last waypoint and return to base. I hope he will just perform the same manouver everytime. If not, try gun_pipper_highspeed3.miz where I tried to force him to decelerate for waypoint 3. You in your aircraft leave the throttle at the same setting and maintain around 720 kts when he hits the brakes. The amount of approaching speed to the bandit seems also play a role.

 

See the two missions as video. You realize the pipper going way beyond the 9G mark in the funnel despite the bandit pulling only 2 G. And how the pipper jumps into the right place as soon as the bullets can reach the bandit. The tacview in the split screen shows the bandit in front. Notice my test shots to see if the rounds can catch him.

 

Of course could you argue how can the pipper show the correct lead if the bullets cant reach him, but I highly doubt that the pipper in the real F16 will drive you around like that although the shot is impossible.

 

 


Edited by darkman222
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  • ED Team
On 8/5/2021 at 8:39 PM, darkman222 said:

Of course could you argue how can the pipper show the correct lead if the bullets cant reach him, but I highly doubt that the pipper in the real F16 will drive you around like that although the shot is impossible.

 

I will ask the team but without any evidence it will be difficult to make a change. 

 

thanks

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