Passive engagements?

[Beamscanner]

What is your approach to EMCON engagements? 

 

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I tried to transition a radar only lock to a FLIR only lock, but I cant change SOI during ACM/STT and thus cant transition to a FLIR lock.

 

It would make sense if the FLIR attempted to autolock when slaved in ACM/STT, since you cant change SOI without dropping the lock. 

 

 

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If I get a combined lock while in TWS, selecting silent or EMCON drops both locks, not just the radar lock.

 

The only way I've been able to have a FLIR only lock is to silence the radar first, and then manually slew the FLIR onto a target. 

 

Is there something I'm missing? I dont think the FLIR should be dropping locks upon selection of EMCON or SIL.

 

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Also, shouldn't there be a FLIR button in the Az/El page? 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Beamscanner

[Harker]

The easiest way is to be on SIL and get info on the trackfile from the datalink. You can see the altitude and Mach of an off board trackfile if you hover the TDC over it.

Then, you can set up your radar so that you can detect it quickly, go out of SIL and engage.

If you enter STT from an non-ACM mode, you can switch TDC priority between displays.

I was actually surprised that my FLIR autotrack target dropped after I silenced my radar and the trackfile disappeared, but I'm pretty sure that's a bug (probably) and also WIP, since the FLIR in autotrack mode can contribute to the MSI trackfile by itself.

The AZ/EL does have a FLIR level, you can switch between the radar and FLIR one with OSB 5 or by bumping the SCS towards the AZ/EL. The main problem with the AZ/EL, however, is that it's not showing off board MSI trackfiles, as it should. That'd make it very easy to stay on SIL and point the FLIR to an off board track, so hopefully it gets implemented sooner rather than later.

You should also be able to designate an off board MSI trackfile as the L&S, but that's not implemented yet either.

In short, I go with SIL and turn on my radar only to engage, but the entire EMCON approach will change after the missing MSI functionalities are implemented.

[Hulkbust44]

What is your approach to EMCON engagements? 
 
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If I get a combined lock while in TWS, selecting silent or EMCON drops both locks, not just the radar lock.
 
Also, shouldn't there be a FLIR button in the Az/El page? 

The reason the FLIR stops tracking is because it is slaved to the L+S and is not actively tracking the target. You must castle towards FLIR to command a track. When the FLIR is tracking the HUD TD box will display F. If the track is also L+S a C for correlated will be displayed. AIM-9s will be slaved to FLIR LOS.

There is a FLIR button on the AZ/EL format, just not top level. Castle (SCS) to AZ/EL with the TDC OUTSIDE OF THE TACTICAL AREA. It defaults to this position over "stores" when TDC is assigned. You can ensure this works by castling away and back to reset the TDC position.

Once you have castle towards the format when it was TDC priority you will be brought to the FLIR pointing sublevel. Default TDC position is the same, but stores is replaced with FLIR. A simple TDC depress then will cue the FLIR image to where the AZ/EL is. Also in this FLIR as sensor mode you are changing where the pod looks with the TDC rather than interacting with the radar.

You *should* be able to exit ACM while retaining a STT with TDC depress, but not yet.

The display of datalink HAFUs on the AZ/EL should also be possible, but that should come with an MSI rework.

Mobius708

The easiest way is to be on SIL and get info on the trackfile from the datalink. You can see the altitude and Mach of an off board trackfile if you hover the TDC over it.

Then, you can set up your radar so that you can detect it quickly, go out of SIL and engage.

If you enter STT from an non-ACM mode, you can switch TDC priority between displays.

I was actually surprised that my FLIR autotrack target dropped after I silenced my radar and the trackfile disappeared, but I'm pretty sure that's a bug (probably) and also WIP, since the FLIR in autotrack mode can contribute to the MSI trackfile by itself.

The AZ/EL does have a FLIR level, you can switch between the radar and FLIR one with OSB 5 or by bumping the SCS towards the AZ/EL. The main problem with the AZ/EL, however, is that it's not showing off board MSI trackfiles, as it should. That'd make it very easy to stay on SIL and point the FLIR to an off board track, so hopefully it gets implemented sooner rather than later.

You should also be able to designate an off board MSI trackfile as the L&S, but that's not implemented yet either.

In short, I go with SIL and turn on my radar only to engage, but the entire EMCON approach will change after the missing MSI functionalities are implemented.

Of course Harker beats me to it by typing faster, GRRR. Oh well, your explanations are better anyway.

Mobius708

[HILOK]

6 hours ago, Beamscanner said:

If I get a combined lock while in TWS, selecting silent or EMCON drops both locks, not just the radar lock

oh, when has EMCON been implemented? and where is it documented? thanks 

[Jak525]

Expanding on what Harker said, yeah, it's all real clunky without proper MSI. To transition to a Radar track to a FLIR-only track what you should be able to do is simply go on the Az/El FLIR sublevel, cursor over a HAFU, and castle toward Az/El. This should command the FLIR into Autotrack. From there a quick double Castle forward should go to EMCON, shutting off the Radar but the FLIR is obviously unaffected as a passive sensor. You could also select SIL on the Attack format. The HAFU remains there, since the FLIR (in Autotrack) contributes to MSI. Although no range or altitude data.

 

A few other methods exist too; e.g. designate a Radar trackfile as the L&S, go to FLIR L+S slave, then command Autotrack from the FLIR format. Alternatively you can TDC depress over empty space on the Az/El FLIR format, slew over a track, and then release which commands the FLIR to be slaved to that trackfile's LOS. From there you could go to the FLIR format and Autotrack. Then once ultimately in Autotrack you can SILence the Radar or go into full EMCON mode to shut off other radio emitters.

 

I feel like the latter two methods should work now actually...

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jak525

[Beamscanner]

Thanks for the info guys. I look forward to proper MSI implementation.

 

1 hour ago, Jak525 said:

You could also select SIL on the Attack format. The HAFU remains there, since the FLIR (in Autotrack) contributes to MSI. Although no range or altitude data.

 

A few other methods exist too; e.g. designate a Radar trackfile as the L&S, go to FLIR L+S slave, then command Autotrack from the FLIR format. Alternatively you can TDC depress over empty space on the Az/El FLIR format, slew over a track, and then release which commands the FLIR to be slaved to that trackfile's LOS. From there you could go to the FLIR format and Autotrack. Then once ultimately in Autotrack you can SILence the Radar or go into full EMCON mode to shut off other radio emitters.

 

I feel like the latter two methods should work now actually...

 

Yea, the silent button is dropping both tracks. Not just the radar track. 

 

very interested in the FLIR cueing via the Az/El page though

[maxTRX]

7 hours ago, HILOK said:

oh, when has EMCON been implemented? and where is it documented? thanks 

 

It is implemented for... silencing TACAN DME.  The radar and the radios are still happily radiating. I forgot to check the rad. altimeter.

As far as ATFLIR 's A/A mode... will test it shortly.

BTW, once EMCON is fully implemented, it might be a good idea to have some sort of persisting indication showing EMCON is on. Currently, nothing on HUD or anywhere else. Well, it shows on UFCP for some seconds then disappears.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Gripes323

[Jak525]

1 hour ago, Beamscanner said:

Thanks for the info guys. I look forward to proper MSI implementation.

 

Yea, the silent button is dropping both tracks. Not just the radar track. 

 

very interested in the FLIR cueing via the Az/El page though

It's just what I described, nothing crazy but quite handy. All that's missing in DCS is the ability to autotrack from azel.

 

The super cool, missing element of MSI is the FLIR's contribution. So if you have the FLIR in Autotrack on a target, it creates an angle only HAFU; looks normal on the Az/El, and in the dugout on the Attack and SA. You could make it the L&S, and, very importantly, directly Radar STT it like any other track. Or just simply cue the scan volume at that azimuth and elevation on the AzEl.

 

This is why there is no direct Radar to FLIR slave mode. It's unnecessary with MSI.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jak525

[maxTRX]

Meanwhile... in our DCS world:

 

The Litening pod will maintain PTRK track once the radar is off (SIL), same when PTRK track is established without slaving to radar.

 

ATFLIR will not. After establishing the AUTO track (slaved to radar), the pod will drop it as soon as the radar breaks lock or goes 'SIL'.

If the pod's AUTO track is made without the radar lock first or with the radar off, the ATFLIR will maintain the track quite well.

 

Short test run:

https://youtu.be/9zBsaVHwwm0

 

[Jak525]

1 hour ago, Gripes323 said:

Meanwhile... in our DCS world:

 

The Litening pod will maintain PTRK track once the radar is off (SIL), same when PTRK track is established without slaving to radar.

 

ATFLIR will not. After establishing the AUTO track (slaved to radar), the pod will drop it as soon as the radar breaks lock or goes 'SIL'.

If the pod's AUTO track is made without the radar lock first or with the radar off, the ATFLIR will maintain the track quite well.

 

Short test run:

https://youtu.be/9zBsaVHwwm0

 

Yeah totally wrong lol… Unless you're in LnS slave (not Autotrack), in which case silencing the Radar would delete the track (but not immediately, the target HAFU flashes for a bit first) - and thus, the FLIR would lose it since it's not in track, but is just pointed by the computer to that LOS

 

Just as a note, despite it working practically better at the moment: Litening is modeled after old avionics that predate MSI. Hence why the RRSLV options and stuff are on the Litening; those get removed with MSI.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Jak525

[maxTRX]

1 hour ago, Jak525 said:

Yeah totally wrong lol… Unless you're in LnS slave (not Autotrack), in which case silencing the Radar would delete the track (but not immediately, the target HAFU flashes for a bit first) - and thus, the FLIR would lose it since it's not in track, but is just pointed by the computer to that LOS

 

Just as a note, despite it working practically better at the moment: Litening is modeled after old avionics that predate MSI. Hence why the RRSLV options and stuff are on the Litening; those get removed with MSI.

 

 

I'll take whatever ED throws at me and try to find some use for it .  

btw, I noticed Litening has TDC OBS... in case someone absolutely needed to switch TDC priority to the pod when in some of the ACM modes. Not at dogfight range but something like LACQ.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Gripes323

[Jak525]

12 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

 

I'll take whatever ED throws at me and try to find some use for it .  

btw, I noticed Litening has TDC OBS... in case someone absolutely needed to switch TDC priority to the pod when in some of the ACM modes. Not at dogfight range but something like LACQ.

 

Lol so funny reason behind that. The reason that's there is because ED modeled a Litening off of an avionics build where the ACM condition didn't exist. ACM modes existed like Boresight, WACQ, etc. But there wasn't any ACM condition system for the Castle switch. The logic was, with TDC assigned to the Radar in AA master mode, castle up for BST, left WACQ, aft VACQ. Assigning TDC to the left DDI would therefore be impossible. As such, the TDC button is put on the FLIR format so you can assign TDC to the FLIR.

 

This is obsolete with the invention of the ACM condition which clearly separates when the Castle switch is doing ACM selection functions or "top level" functions like assigning TDC priority and whatnot.

[wilbur81]

5 hours ago, Jak525 said:

You could make it the L&S, and, very importantly, directly Radar STT it like any other track. 

 

 

This is what I would most look forward to...

[HILOK]

9 hours ago, Gripes323 said:

It is implemented for... silencing TACAN DME.  The radar and the radios are still happily radiating. I forgot to check the rad. altimeter.

thanks, thought i'd missed sth