TEDAC Display Unit

[KeyCat]

In anticipation of the Apache I've started to plan my "deskpit" and wonder if anyone seen any pictures of the CPG's TEDAC display unit (TDU). I have downloaded the operational manual (TM 1-1520-251-10) and on page 639 there is a picture (fig. 4-27A) of a TDU and wonder if that's the one we will see in the sim or will we get the old ORT shown on page 643 (fig. 4-28)?

 

Plan is to build a simple CPG "deskpit" and I'm starting with the TDU since I have zero 3D modelling skills needed for the left and right handgrips.

 

Any help appreciated....

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by KeyCat

[Meathawk]

Just google TEDAC AH-64 - there are tons of pictures - or what are you looking for?

The late 64D Block II should have the new TEDAC.

 

For a simple deskpit I'd suggest an XBox Controller.

 

 

 

[DaemonPhobos]

hace 1 hora, KeyCat dijo:

In anticipation of the Apache I've started to plan my "deskpit" and wonder if anyone seen any pictures of the CPG's TEDAC display unit (TDU). I have downloaded the operational manual (TM 1-1520-251-10) and on page 639 there is a picture (fig. 4-27A) of a TDU and wonder if that's the one we will see in the sim or will we get the old ORT shown on page 643 (fig. 4-28)?

 

Plan is to build a simple CPG "deskpit" and I'm starting with the TDU since I have zero 3D modelling skills needed for the left and right handgrips.

 

Any help appreciated....

 

 

 

Yup, TEDAC display unit is confirmed for EDs apache, exactly the same you see here.

 

 

[Meathawk]

nice Pics once again @DaemonPhobos 

[KeyCat]

Thanks for the info guys! Confirmed that picture off the TDU on page 639 is the same as the above so I can start making a schema and later a PCB.

 

That left and right TEDAC handles looks grim

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by KeyCat

[hannibal]

i have not started at all.

im still in the middle of building the aiming station of the Mi24.

 

generally i dont build until the game is out so i can see what DCS has implement for the controls.

 

i like to see a PDF for the TEDAC  similar to what @Wagsprovided for the cyclic and collective

Edited September 15, 2021 by hannibal

[hannibal]

hey @KeyCat question for you, how do you plan to implement the buttons and switches?

i started to plan the TEDAC MFD... its pretty much will max the number of windows buttons of 32, so that the MFD alone is its own joystick,

 

how ever the grips.. seem like each grip alone is about 24+ buttons..

if i tried to implement every button, it will require THREE separate usb joystick controller boards, (one board for the MFD, and 2 boards for each grip)

 

im debating on limiting each grip to 16 buttons and a ministick... to each grip (along with one of them to include a POV hat) so that i can keep the grips to just one usb joystick controller board...

 

Would like your opinion apache experts to figure out what buttons are not important (if i plan to only use one usb joystick controller board)

thoughts @KeyCat @Casmo 

already thinking that "the video record function" is not important

probably "HDD" as well?

[jubuttib]

10 hours ago, hannibal said:

hey @KeyCat question for you, how do you plan to implement the buttons and switches?

i started to plan the TEDAC MFD... its pretty much will max the number of windows buttons of 32, so that the MFD alone is its own joystick,

 

how ever the grips.. seem like each grip alone is about 24+ buttons..

if i tried to implement every button, it will require THREE separate usb joystick controller boards, (one board for the MFD, and 2 boards for each grip)

 

im debating on limiting each grip to 16 buttons and a ministick... to each grip (along with one of them to include a POV hat) so that i can keep the grips to just one usb joystick controller board...

 

Would like your opinion apache experts to figure out what buttons are not important (if i plan to only use one usb joystick controller board)

thoughts @KeyCat @Casmo 

already thinking that "the video record function" is not important

probably "HDD" as well?

Windows does support up to 128 buttons without drivers. Easiest way to build might be using something like the Bodnar BBI-64?

On 9/15/2021 at 5:53 PM, kgillers3 said:

Idk how far you're in your build, both triggers are two stage, maybe a dude who flew the actual aircraft from this period can say what the buttons do for this version, I know for us the labels don't necessarily line up with their function because they kept carrying the same handles forward but as they updated the software the button now does something different.  I.E. cage on the left tedac is a store tgt button. 

Thought I'd ask you, since you seem to know a lot about the Apache controls: Of the 2 and 3 position switches on the TEDAC, would you happen to know which of them are momentary and which are stable positions?

[KeyCat]

On 10/5/2021 at 3:42 AM, hannibal said:

hey @KeyCat question for you, how do you plan to implement the buttons and switches?

i started to plan the TEDAC MFD... its pretty much will max the number of windows buttons of 32, so that the MFD alone is its own joystick,

 

how ever the grips.. seem like each grip alone is about 24+ buttons..

if i tried to implement every button, it will require THREE separate usb joystick controller boards, (one board for the MFD, and 2 boards for each grip)

 

im debating on limiting each grip to 16 buttons and a ministick... to each grip (along with one of them to include a POV hat) so that i can keep the grips to just one usb joystick controller board...

 

Would like your opinion apache experts to figure out what buttons are not important (if i plan to only use one usb joystick controller board)

thoughts @KeyCat @Casmo 

already thinking that "the video record function" is not important

probably "HDD" as well?

 

I'm not 100% I counted correctly but my previous notes tells me...

 

LHG 27 Buttons + 2 Analog Axis

RHG 21 Buttons + 2 Analog Axis

MFD 21 Buttons + one 3-way switch + 2 Analog Axis or 2 Rotary Encoders

 

My goal is to use only one USB controller board along with an optional PCB for the MFD buttons/encoders that connects to the USB controller with a 14-lead ribbon cable. My preliminary controller board design allows for....

 

24 Buttons for L Handgrip (via shift register so button just short to GND, which means easier cabling)

24 Buttons for R Handgrip (via shift register so button just short to GND, which means easier cabling)

6 Analog Axis

1 1x6 pin Button Expansion port connector (up to additional 48 buttons)

1 2x7 pin MFD PCB connector

 

The optional MFD PCB allows for...

 

24 Buttons

4 Rotary Encoders (with 4 buttons)

1 2/3/4/5 or 6-way Selector switch

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by KeyCat

[Viper1970]

Take a look at the Pokeys57U board. It's programmable with DX-button functions or keyboard macros. It has 54 inputs (actually 55, but one is used for the reset function also - I always skip this one pin), but you can use a 16x8 matrix (24 normal inputs will dissapear if you use the matrix) with it which gave you additional 128 functions plus 30 remaining functions, which makes a total of 158 programmable functions.

 

There are also 6 analog axis you can use, which reduces the number of functions to 152 at the end. But this should be still enough for the TEDAC. You can also program press and release states of buttons and switches, even with the matrix. Encoders could also be connected.

 

I use them for my cockpit functions (panels and consoles) and they work perfectly. I also built my old pit with those boards.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Viper1970

[hannibal]

1 hour ago, jubuttib said:

Windows does support up to 128 buttons without drivers. Easiest way to build might be using something like the Bodnar BBI-64?

Thought I'd ask you, since you seem to know a lot about the Apache controls: Of the 2 and 3 position switches on the TEDAC, would you happen to know which of them are momentary and which are stable positions?

 

@jubuttib there is a disclaimer

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=300

 

Please be aware that not all software supports more than 32 buttons. Check before ordering. For example FSUPIC does not support more than 32 buttons per input device.

 

bbi-64 may or may not be support by the game. 

in addition, as much as i am building the tedac, it like the build to be open to other games. along with keeping the windows standard of 32 buttons + a hat...

 

so, i have to decide on limiting the handles to 40 functions, or use an additional mmjoy2 supported board for a total of 3 joysticks boards,

I am leaning to keep it to to the 40 functions so that i am only 2 joystick boards (one for the grips and one for the mfd)... and not 3

1 hour ago, Viper1970 said:

Take a look at the Pokeys57U board. It's programmable with DX-button functions or keyboard macros. It has 54 inputs (actually 55, but one is used for the reset function also - I always skip this one pin), but you can use a 16x8 matrix (24 normal inputs will dissapear if you use the matrix) with it which gave you additional 128 functions plus 30 remaining functions, which makes a total of 158 programmable functions.

 

There are also 6 analog axis you can use, which reduces the number of functions to 152 at the end. But this should be still enough for the TEDAC. You can also program press and release states of buttons and switches, even with the matrix. Encoders could also be connected.

 

I use them for my cockpit functions (panels and consoles) and they work perfectly. I also built my old pit with those boards.

 

 

i would use the analog axis. as addiitonal functions but i do not want to do that until i know the actual DCS ah64d axis assignements and control mappings

 

please provide @Wags @NineLine the control layout in pdf for the TEDAC as you guys wonderfully did for the cyclic collective!

Edited October 5, 2021 by hannibal

[hannibal]

1 hour ago, Viper1970 said:

Take a look at the Pokeys57U board. It's programmable with DX-button functions or keyboard macros. It has 54 inputs (actually 55, but one is used for the reset function also - I always skip this one pin), but you can use a 16x8 matrix (24 normal inputs will dissapear if you use the matrix) with it which gave you additional 128 functions plus 30 remaining functions, which makes a total of 158 programmable functions.

 

There are also 6 analog axis you can use, which reduces the number of functions to 152 at the end. But this should be still enough for the TEDAC. You can also program press and release states of buttons and switches, even with the matrix. Encoders could also be connected.

 

I use them for my cockpit functions (panels and consoles) and they work perfectly. I also built my old pit with those boards.

 

 

can u take a screenshot of how this board shows up in windows devices and printers? if you can show the windows controller layout, that would be great.

does DCS actually pickup more than 32 buttons from this one device controller?

i do not want to build a limited controller.. my goal is to make a tedac, but still function as a generic windows gaming controller.

 

my mi24 aiming station not only works great as a aiming station controller, but also it works not too shabby as a doorgun controller for the huey...

Edited October 5, 2021 by hannibal

[KeyCat]

2 hours ago, Viper1970 said:

Take a look at the Pokeys57U board. It's programmable with DX-button functions or keyboard macros. It has 54 inputs (actually 55, but one is used for the reset function also - I always skip this one pin), but you can use a 16x8 matrix (24 normal inputs will dissapear if you use the matrix) with it which gave you additional 128 functions plus 30 remaining functions, which makes a total of 158 programmable functions.

 

There are also 6 analog axis you can use, which reduces the number of functions to 152 at the end. But this should be still enough for the TEDAC. You can also program press and release states of buttons and switches, even with the matrix. Encoders could also be connected.

 

I use them for my cockpit functions (panels and consoles) and they work perfectly. I also built my old pit with those boards.

 

 

Thanks for the tip but will make a MMJoy2 based PCB with 2x24 buttons and 4 axis for the L/R handgrips.

[hannibal]

3 hours ago, KeyCat said:

 

Thanks for the tip but will make a MMJoy2 based PCB with 2x24 buttons and 4 axis for the L/R handgrips.

 

i hope ED will confirm what actually are the buttons and axis for the hand grips... 

[jubuttib]

5 hours ago, hannibal said:

@jubuttib there is a disclaimer

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=300

 

Please be aware that not all software supports more than 32 buttons. Check before ordering. For example FSUPIC does not support more than 32 buttons per input device.

 

bbi-64 may or may not be support by the game. 

in addition, as much as i am building the tedac, it like the build to be open to other games. along with keeping the windows standard of 32 buttons + a hat...

True, some games artificially limit themselves to 32, but plenty of games work with it: DCS, MSFS, X-Plane, Project CARS series, AMS2, AC, ACC, iRacing... Personally really like using them, and if a game doesn't support the buttons I'd personally map the offshoot to Vjoy devices.

 

But I can see your point, do it however you wish.

[hannibal]

6 hours ago, jubuttib said:

True, some games artificially limit themselves to 32, but plenty of games work with it: DCS, MSFS, X-Plane, Project CARS series, AMS2, AC, ACC, iRacing... Personally really like using them, and if a game doesn't support the buttons I'd personally map the offshoot to Vjoy devices.

 

But I can see your point, do it however you wish.

can u screenshot what this board looks like in windows controllers, printer and devices?

[KeyCat]

10 hours ago, hannibal said:

 

i hope ED will confirm what actually are the buttons and axis for the hand grips... 

 

Yea that would be a plus but I guess it won't take to long until we know more details and we also have great help from kgiller3 and others that know the real deal.

 

[Viper1970]

If some of you guys are willing, we can make this "damned" thing in teamwork .

 

I also wanted to make a TEDAC, but there is still so much to do at my pit, so I thought I will do the TEDAC after the pit is ready for flying (at least for one or two modules). At the moment  I'm just about to finish my last controls for the pit and after that there is much to print.

 

In the meantime I will go back to my pit and do some work here, but I could also do some 3D modelling from time to time. On my own it's too much work to do the TEDAC at the moment, but if we work toghether as a team, it should be doable.

 

Also keep in mind I'm no 3D modeller, but if there are guys who are more talented as I am, maybe we can make a real good device together.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Viper1970

[hannibal]

3 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

There should be only 4 axis. Thumb force controller and cursor for handles. Level and gain on the bezel of the tdu.  Rest are switches or buttons.  Granted depending on how Ed programs it I guess it could change but that’s the only 4 that aren’t switches or buttons. 

 

I'm skeptical that level and gain will be analog inputs.. I'm planning to use encoders for the knobs..since previous dcs aircraft like a10c ka50 have button command functions for those knobs...

[Viper1970]

49 minutes ago, hannibal said:

I'm skeptical that level and gain will be analog inputs.. I'm planning to use encoders for the knobs..since previous dcs aircraft like a10c ka50 have button command functions for those knobs...

 

And that's exact the reason I will use a Pokeys board for my TEDAC. It can do what ever you want. You also can save different configurations and reload them to the board. That's also the reason I use TM electronics in my HOTAS to be able to use TARGET. But I know programable boards or keyboard macros are out of fashion

[KeyCat]

Finalized the design for the TEDAC Controller last night. Still haven't decided if I do a full HW MFD or do it with Helios and a small touch screen but with the 2x8 pin button matrix pinheader on board I now have that as an option if I change my mind.

 

 

Haven't routed the PCB yet but that will be next week. All dimensions in mm and mounting holes are 3.2 mm

 

Also made a mockup for the HW MFD to see how much space available inside. I just did a rough estimation on the space in the slots inside the frame by looking at the screen shots hannibal posted in the other thread.

 

It would be better to just have one PCB with all 6x6 mm buttons and required matrix diodes to eliminate much of cable the wiring but don't think it's possible to have the PCB go all around in the frame and still allow for the encoders an rocker switches (marked as orange rectangles) so this was the second best option I could come up with.

 

 

To make wiring a bit easier and not require to add the matrix diodes one by one to each switch an additional PCB (used SMD in the mockup but probably better with 1N4148 PHT for easier hand soldering) that connects to TEDAC Controller above (or any other controller capable to handle 8 rows and 5 columns button matrix, most can I guess) via 16-lead  ribbon cable. Will still require some manual wiring between the buttons/encoders in the MFD but at least it will be a bit easier.

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Viper1970 said:

If some of you guys are willing, we can make this "damned" thing in teamwork .

 

I also wanted to make a TEDAC, but there is still so much to do at my pit, so I thought I will do the TEDAC after the pit is ready for flying (at least for one or two modules). At the moment  I'm just about to finish my last controls for the pit and after that there is much to print.

 

In the meantime I will go back to my pit and do some work here, but I could also do some 3D modelling from time to time. On my own it's too much work to do the TEDAC at the moment, but if we work toghether as a team, it should be doable.

 

Also keep in mind I'm no 3D modeller, but if there are guys who are more talented as I am, maybe we can make a real good device together.

 

 

Sounds like a great idea Viper. As I mentioned previously my 3D modelling skills are low. The electronics side of things are much easier for me. Even if I decide to not build the HW MFD I can still help finish the above mockup PCB's (or any other small PCB you may need in your other cool HOTAS projects).

 

Another thing is if we select to use same LCD/buttons/encoders/etc we can bulk by for better prices.

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by KeyCat

[Viper1970]

Hi KeyCat,

 

that sound very good!!! I admire your work on doing all this electronics stuff. I also tried this a while ago with Eagle and I have also a very small circuit board etching device, but the results weren't really good .

 

I considered to buy such a small cheap china cnc mill only for PCB engraving, but my little workshop is already bursting at seams. For most of my projects the Pokeys cards where able to do it and they are relatively cheap in price if you choose the one without the terminals. But if you can produce special electronics like you are able to do, this is a completely other story. Great work!

 

I would love to do some teamwork, maybe there are some other guys too, which are interested in it. I always had the belief that if some guys will put there minds and ideas together, we could really make some cool things for our beloved hobby.

 

My CAD (better said 3D modeling) skills aren't very high, rather very low . But I was always able to use things in an unconvential way to get the things done I wanted to have. That's the only talent I'm good in.

[hannibal]

my 3d prints wont be pretty either.

my wiring will definitely be a spegehtti mess lolol

im trying to balance between function and time.

so much to do, just want something quick and up and running

 

this was my garmin 3d print build 

[Viper1970]

I also really hate the time it takes to print bigger parts, especially if you like them relatively smooth and therefore with a small layer-height. For bigger cases or something like this I always use a 0.8mm nozzle with 0.25mm to 0.3mm layer height and set the print speed relatively high, too. But this isn't possible at the HOTAS parts.

 

I already increased the layers to 0.125mm from 0.1mm, took a 0.5mm nozzle instead a 0.4mm and set the print speed to 55mm/s. This is the the fastet setting I could run on my Ender 3 Pro, what keeps the parts good enough in quality. But it still takes about 16-24 hours for one half of a grip and you always have to pray that no sh.. will happen. The longer the printing time, the more the time sh.. could happen .

 

For the HOTAS I use an infill of 60%, cause I want the parts relatively massive and it doesn't make much difference if you use 40 or 60% infill in the time it needs to print. The biggest factor is the layer-height and the nozzle size, even the speed itself doesn't have a real big effect on the printing time, except you slow it drastically down.

 

P.S:

 

And although I have a resin printer, I very rarely use it. I'm a lazy guy and hate the cleaning of it after the printing. I even made buttons and hats with my FDM printer and got really good results. Here I use 0.1mm layer-height a 0.4mm nozzle and print really, really slow with 10 to 15mm/s. Even very small parts were precise and if they had a texture on it, like the paddle switch, it was absolutely clear and sharp in its shape.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Viper1970

[hannibal]

it was pita to print the mi24 aiming station.. but patience is key.

 

after some thought, i decide that each TEDAC grip will have its own usb controller board.

im also going to have it detachable. it can be reattached with magnets to the MFD section.

this is consideration for if i ever achieve making the tedac, i like to have this on a motion platform. but im concerned friends might use it has a "handheld support" for when the platform is in motion...

 

at least the grips can detach and a friend wont end up destroying my build.. lol

now i can close the case on to go 2 usb boards or 3...

my TEDAC will be 3 joysticks! lol

 

my ender is .4mm at 50mm / s and i have had sit happen lol

@Viper1970

that new Apache teaser with hellfire is sexy..

Edited October 7, 2021 by hannibal