Project New Su-27 by 3GO WorkGroup

[SkieRider]

:thumbup::thumbup: Looking awesome

 

One question..

 

Will there be an Aerobatic version without the pylons ?

The su-27P version(A2A only,but when no weapon, no pylon is possible) will be released after the Su-27S version.....

[Luse]

Awesome !

[Scart]

:thumbup:

[Mustang]

Superb work as always SkieRider and Vanj! :thumbup:

 

This will be one classic model for the community :)

[Vekkinho]

Beautiful skins guys, I am glad you've retained original Su-27 textures order but this time in high detail!

 

One more thing, if possible please include more "skin slots" with new Su-27 so we can add custom skins without need of replacing RL ones!

 

Here's the skin pretty similar to Lipetsk #08 but without sharkmouth intake graphic I'd like to see it with Your Su-27 model, it was used pretty often in CCCP (white radome, green fin tips):

http://www.airfighters.com/photo_2035.details.large

 

Thanks 3GO!

[SkieRider]

Beautiful skins guys, I am glad you've retained original Su-27 textures order but this time in high detail!

 

One more thing, if possible please include more "skin slots" with new Su-27 so we can add custom skins without need of replacing RL ones!

 

Here's the skin pretty similar to Lipetsk #08 but without sharkmouth intake graphic I'd like to see it with Your Su-27 model, it was used pretty often in CCCP (white radome, green fin tips):

http://www.airfighters.com/photo_2035.details.large

 

Thanks 3GO!

 

OK, extra skins will be considered!

[Majesco]

The su-27P version(A2A only,but when no weapon, no pylon is possible) will be released after the Su-27S version.....

 

So, will you build a new Su-30M/MK multi-role 2 seater model ? :doh:

I really love Su-30MK, it looks beautiful :D

[92nd-MajorBug]

The su-27P version(A2A only,but when no weapon, no pylon is possible) will be released after the Su-27S version.....

:noexpression:

 

You know that you can make the pylons appear and disappear with one single 3d model, right ? And even make this editable by the end user with one single .skins file, right ? (the same file that would allow anyone to use a thousand skins if they like)

 

You can even make the two-seaters versions share the same 3d model than the single seater versions if you like

Edited January 17, 2009 by 92nd-MajorBug

[Alfa]

:noexpression:

 

You know that you can make the pylons appear and disappear with one single 3d model, right ? And even make this editable by the end user with one single .skins file, right ? (the same file that would allow anyone to use a thousand skins if they like)

 

You can even make the two-seaters versions share the same 3d model than the single seater versions if you like

 

You don't understand :) .

 

"Pylons" consist of two parts - aircraft specific adapter blocks and weapons specific launcher blocks. The second mod-variant SkieRider mentioned is not about making "pylons" appear or disappear, but about more accurately depicting the association between weapons and their dedicated launcher blocks.

 

This cannot be done through animation of the 3D model, but actually requires new combined "mirror" entries(rack+weapon) to be made for all weapon types carried by the Su-27 - in the case of the R-27R(and -RE), it even requires separate combinations with two different types of racks(APU-470 and AKU-470) depending on where on the aircraft the weapon is loaded.

 

Unfortunately it does not seem possible to get such new rack/weapon combinations working when they involve rocket pods(possible due to hardcoded salvo logics). Hence the reason for two mod versions.....one(Su-27S)with fixed pylons and a2g ordinance and another(Su-27P) a2a only, but with proper(and removable) weapon/launcher combinations.

[S.T.A.LK.E.R.]

OK, extra skins will be considered!

I found some photos with Su-27 Shark (Number 08 )

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006033

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006034

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006035

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006036

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006134

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006145

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006154

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006215

Su-27 (B№01)

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006103

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006104

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/lipetsk2006/index.php?picid=lipetsk2006170

 

Su-27 Russian Knights

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/kubinka2006_knights/index.php?picid=kubinka2006_knights009

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/kubinka2006_knights/index.php?picid=kubinka2006_knights017

http://www.foxbat.ru/maks/kubinka2006_knights/index.php?picid=kubinka2006_knights142

[92nd-MajorBug]

You don't understand :) .

 

"Pylons" consist of two parts - aircraft specific adapter blocks and weapons specific launcher blocks. The second mod-variant SkieRider mentioned is not about making "pylons" appear or disappear, but about more accurately depicting the association between weapons and their dedicated launcher blocks.

 

This cannot be done through animation of the 3D model, but actually requires new combined "mirror" entries(rack+weapon) to be made for all weapon types carried by the Su-27 - in the case of the R-27R(and -RE), it even requires separate combinations with two different types of racks(APU-470 and AKU-470) depending on where on the aircraft the weapon is loaded.

 

Unfortunately it does not seem possible to get such new rack/weapon combinations working when they involve rocket pods(possible due to hardcoded salvo logics). Hence the reason for two mod versions.....one(Su-27S)with fixed pylons and a2g ordinance and another(Su-27P) a2a only, but with proper(and removable) weapon/launcher combinations.

We are not talking about the same thing. What I'm telling you is about making weapons pylons visible or not based on the .skins configuration. That means you would be able to get into the mission with all the pylons empty but present, or with no pylons at all, based only on the skin you choose.

 

For exemple Russian Knights fly with no weapons, but the pylons are not removed on their planes. If you link the pylon to the weapon you won't be able to do so (i.e, with no weapon, you always get no pylon, and you don't have the choice)

 

And by using one single 3d model (thus replacing a single plane in LOMAC, in this case the Su-27) you can model a one seater or two seater cockpit, canards or not, and other less visible modifications between all the diffrent Su-27 versions. Seeing how much the Su-27/30/33/35 share of their structure (+ all the specific versions, for exemple it's possibile to do a Su-30MKI with animated thrust vectoring), it would be a waste IMHO not to try some of this stuff with the argument 70 on the new Su-27 model.

 

By the way (once again) that's how in the ada-mod you would be able to find the Mirage 2000B, 2000C, 2000D, 2000N and 2000-5 with all the structure modifications on one single slot, so when I'm telling this is possible, I know what I'm talking about ;)

 

Cheers

Edited January 17, 2009 by 92nd-MajorBug

[Alfa]

We are not talking about the same thing.

 

No we are not talking about the same thing, but from this reply...

 

You know that you can make the pylons appear and disappear with one single 3d model, right ? And even make this editable by the end user with one single .skins file, right ?

 

...I got the impression that you thought the reason there will be two versions of the mod was because SkieRider couldn't figure out how to do argument based visibility animations/didn't know about arg #70....he does :) .

 

What I'm telling you is about making weapons pylons visible or not based on the .skins configuration.

 

I know, but what I am telling you is that this isn't the reason why there will be two versions of the mod. I made the racks mod in order to get the appropriate launcher rack loaded for a particular weapon....i.e. realism. The fact that it also means that the aircraft appears "clean" when no weapon is loaded I consider a "side benefit" :) .

 

That means you would be able to get into the mission with all the pylons empty but present, or with no pylons at all, based only on the skin you choose.

 

For exemple Russian Knights fly with no weapons, but the pylons are not removed on their planes. If you link the pylon to the weapon you won't be able to do so (i.e, with no weapon, you always get no pylon, and you don't have the choice)

 

No but then if you load your aircraft with a partial loadout, the racks are removed from the unused stations - in your approach you will have either no pylons or all of them. Anyway, the fact that the Russian Knights occassionally can't be bothered to remove the pylons when flying displays is IMO less interesting to depict than realistic rack/weapon associations.

 

And by using one single 3d model (thus replacing a single plane in LOMAC, in this case the Su-27) you can model a one seater or two seater cockpit, canards or not, and other less visible modifications between all the diffrent Su-27 versions. Seeing how much the Su-27/30/33/35 share of their structure (+ all the specific versions, for exemple it's possibile to do a Su-30MKI with animated thrust vectoring), it would be a waste IMHO not to try some of this stuff with the argument 70 on the new Su-27 model.

 

Well thats your opinion - I personally prefer realism. I dissagree that the Su-27 versions are so similar in structure, flight characteristics not to mention loadout capacity/diversity that the above is viable. What you are suggesting is essentially "shape swapping" over the same aircraft slot....albeit in a more convenient way for the user.

[92nd-MajorBug]

The fact that it also means that the aircraft appears "clean" when no weapon is loaded I consider a "side benefit"

Then what if you fly missions that don't require more than a partial loadout such as airspace surveillance and convoying ? You will get "partially clean" aircraft, which is not realistic at all considering that pylons hardly ever get removed on russian aircraft.

 

in your approach you will have either no pylons or all of them

Erm ... why ? You can very well make it possible to get only the outer wings pylons, or only the wings pylons, or only the fuselage pylons, or none at all, or all of them, or the numbers 3, 7 and 8 only if you like. It's all a matter of how you design the pylons in the model then how you configure them using the .skins. You can make them all independent if you want. That's the way it works with ada-mod anyway.

 

You can even design the pylons in a way that an APU-470 will show with one skin and an AKU-470 will show with another. Unless the russians are changing pylons on every plane all the time, you get true realism this way.

 

Anyway, the fact that the Russian Knights occassionally can't be bothered to remove the pylons when flying displays is IMO less interesting to depict than realistic rack/weapon associations.

Not occasionnaly, they never remove the pylons as they are flying combat-ready aircrafts - on which the russian air force hardly ever remove a single pylon.

 

I dissagree that the Su-27 versions are so similar in structure, flight characteristics not to mention loadout capacity/diversity that the above is viable

That's true they don't behave exactly the same. But the Su-27 flight model in LOMAC is not an AFM. Considering, for example, that you get stuck with fixed pitch as soon as you get below 120 km/h, then having a 10% difference in thrust, or a 10% difference in drag coefficients, or a 10% in nose authority because you get better engines or canards on different version won't be noticed this much.

 

On the other hand you get the possibity to fly a few more good looking airplanes such as the Su-30MK without the buggy humancockpit=yes modification. Plus you can have Su-27s and Su-30s in the same flight ...

 

As for the weapons used by the most advanced versions, most of them work perfectly well with the Su-27 (R-77, Kh-29, KAB-500, etc).

 

What you are suggesting is essentially "shape swapping" over the same aircraft slot....

What I suggest is essentially giving more nice options to people who will want to use them. Basically, just polishing the basic Su-27 while you have the opportunity to do so much more is a waste.

 

By the way about your pylons modification, if it involved any lua edit, did you test it online ? Last time we checked (when trying to make custom racks), the lua was server-side and with non-modded clients we got straight CTDs all the time.

Plus there is a chance you will need to put new weapons in the MEinit if you want to avoid side effects like Mig-23 or Mig-29 having Su-27 pylons fitted with their R-73 and R-27, which does not work very well online.

[Alfa]

Then what if you fly missions that don't require more than a partial loadout such as airspace surveillance and convoying ? You will get "partially clean" aircraft, which is not realistic at all considering that pylons hardly ever get removed on russian aircraft.

 

Whether "pylons" get removed or not when not in use has nothing to do with realism - you can remove them or leave them on. What you cannot do as a matter of realism is to load an R-73 on an APU-470 rack.

 

Erm ... why ? You can very well make it possible to get only the outer wings pylons, or only the wings pylons, or only the fuselage pylons, or none at all, or all of them, or the numbers 3, 7 and 8 only if you like. It's all a matter of how you design the pylons in the model then how you configure them using the .skins. You can make them all independent if you want. That's the way it works with ada-mod anyway.

 

You can even design the pylons in a way that an APU-470 will show with one skin and an AKU-470 will show with another. Unless the russians are changing pylons on every plane all the time, you get true realism this way.

 

So if I want to fly with R-73s on pylons 3 and 7, I would need to select a particular skin option to get the right launchers(APU-73) to show for the weapons?. In my opinion it makes more sense to control payload suspension points via weapon assignments in the Payload Editor than via the skin selection - to put it mildly.

 

Not occasionnaly, they never remove the pylons as they are flying combat-ready aircrafts - on which the russian air force hardly ever remove a single pylon.

 

Bollocks - if the weapon type is changed the associated launcher rack needs to go with it.

 

What I suggest is essentially giving more nice options to people who will want to use them. Basically, just polishing the basic Su-27 while you have the opportunity to do so much more is a waste.

 

Again a matter of opinion - I think its a waste to make several separate aircraft models for a single slot when a) there are so many consessions as far as realism goes(flying an Su-35 with the Su-27 cockpit is a joke IMHO) and b). when there are 4 different Su-27 entries in the game - i.e. hardly necessary to cramp several versions into the same slot.

 

By the way about your pylons modification, if it involved any lua edit, did you test it online ? Last time we checked (when trying to make custom racks), the lua was server-side and with non-modded clients we got straight CTDs all the time.

 

Yes it involves quite a few lua modifcations and no I didn't test it online, but it obviously won't work unless both server and client have the mod installed - another good reason to make two versions of the Su-27 mod.

 

Plus there is a chance you will need to put new weapons in the MEinit if you want to avoid side effects like Mig-23 or Mig-29 having Su-27 pylons fitted with their R-73 and R-27, which does not work very well online.

 

A chance? - there is no way you can make realistic rack/weapon combinations without making new "mirror" weapon entries in the meinit.

[92nd-MajorBug]

So basically, using the Su-27P model online (let's say on HL) will require everyone to get the mod, right ?

 

So if I want to fly with R-73s on pylons 3 and 7, I would need to select a particular skin option to get the right launchers(APU-73) to show for the weapons?.

Yes. But is it a realistic payload ? I mean, yes it's possible, but is the russian air force using this option ?

 

On the other hand, they never use combat-ready aircrafts with some of the pylons missing. And aircraft sent to patrol the airspace are not going there with 10 missiles, because a missile's lifespan is short and flying missiles around just for the fun of it costs a lot.

 

So, what is the less unrealistic solution ? :)

(there is one, for sure, that works without any glitches online)

 

Again a matter of opinion - I think its a waste to make several separate aircraft models for a single slot when a) there are so many consessions as far as realism goes(flying an Su-35 with the Su-27 cockpit is a joke IMHO)

No one would force you to use the Su-35 model if the cockpit doesn't suit you :)

You would see the people who want to do so flying some Su-35s, that's all. Weapon capacity however is a bigger problem ;)

 

b). when there are 4 different Su-27 entries in the game - i.e. hardly necessary to cramp several versions into the same slot.

That's interesting. You mean that there are 3 other unused Su-27 CLSID that could be used ingame ? If so, aren't all the CLSID linked to the Su-27.cmd/Su-27.lom ?

 

 

 

Anyway, whatever we say, looks like you're not going to do more than a polished Su-27 anyway. No problem with that, it's your choice, but soon enough a few other 3d models will come out with all modding options included (for example : a fully editable .skins for all parts of the aircraft, or two-seater version based on skin selection), and I hope you won't have any regrets at this time.

Edited January 17, 2009 by 92nd-MajorBug

[Vekkinho]

That's interesting. You mean that there are 3 other unused Su-27 CLSID that could be used ingame ? If so, aren't all the CLSID linked to the Su-27.cmd/Su-27.lom ?

 

I know of two CLSID for Su-27.cmd: Standard Su-27P model and Test pilots one (w/o EOS in front of the canopy).

 

Su-30 and 33 are separate .cmd!

[Alfa]

So basically, using the Su-27P model online (let's say on HL) will require everyone to get the mod, right ?

 

Yes I would think so - but the initial Su-27S version of the mod will have no such requirement.

 

Yes. But is it a realistic payload ? I mean, yes it's possible, but is the russian air force using this option ?

 

They would if the situation called for it. The fact is that the R-73 can be loaded onto the aircraft at these positions, and if it is, requires the APU-73 for the purpose. Following that logic of yours, it doesn't matter if a FAB-100 is loaded onto an APU-470 rail launcher(lol) in the sim, because the Russian air force is rarely seen using a2g munitions for the Su-27.

 

On the other hand, they never use combat-ready aircrafts with some of the pylons missing.

 

Thats just plain wrong.

 

No one would force you to use the Su-35 model if the cockpit doesn't suit you :)

 

No but I was refering to you comment about it being a "waste" not to exploit the Su-27 entry to the fullest - I think it would be a waste to triplicate or quadruplicate the work load making nice Su-35 or Su-30MKI models when the reality is that these versions cannot be simulated remotely accurately in Lock-on.....whether using the Su-27 slot or not :) .

 

You would see the people who want to do so flying some Su-35s, that's all. Weapon capacity however is a bigger problem ;)

 

Yes and I would also think weapon capability could be a problem online - i.e. if you use the Su-27 slot for an Su-35 then you would also need to include the weapons it can use - such as the R-77 - into the payload options.

 

That's interesting. You mean that there are 3 other unused Su-27 CLSID that could be used ingame ? If so, aren't all the CLSID linked to the Su-27.cmd/Su-27.lom ?

 

No I meant that there is an Su-27, an Su-27K, an Su-27PU and an Su-27IB in the game ;) . So if I wanted to make e.g. an alternative Su-30 variant avaliable I would use the Su-30 slot for the purpose - either replacing the original variant or doing what you suggest. As far as I can tell(been awhile since I tried) the Su-30 FM is not completely off the mark when made flyable.

 

Anyway, whatever we say, looks like you're not going to do more than a polished Su-27 anyway. No problem with that, it's your choice, but soon enough a few other 3d models will come out with all modding options included (for example : a fully editable .skins for all parts of the aircraft, or two-seater version based on skin selection), and I hope you won't have any regrets at this time.

 

I am not speaking for 3GO, so I cannot say what they plan to do - I just made the racks mod for them. But you seem to think that they do things the way they do because they don't know any better, just as you apparently don't get what my racks mod is about.

 

I doubt that they will regret anything - making a "polished" Su-27 with as little disruption to the sim as possible(including performance) seems to be exactly what they intended, which in turn is yet another good reason for making two versions of the Su-27 mod.

[Luse]

Wow,

 

Your gone for a day you come back a freakin novels been written lol

[S.T.A.LK.E.R.]

Have you got any news?

[MiGgressor]

How in the world did I miss this???

 

That Flanker is sexy! Congratulations, great, great job!

 

PS: any chance for a two-seater version? :music_whistling:

[polluxware]

any news? :)

 

this model is óósome

[SuperKungFu]

please visit the simmoders forum for updates.

[SkieRider]

What about this?

Now the model is only one step away from being released!

[Ross-impress]

Respect for this kind piece of art!!

 

Ross..

[Szelma]

O k....wa !

Wow this is ****'n awesome...

Can't wait. We need only RICARDO HD cockpit mod:joystick: