IRIS-T for a2g ?

[Mike_Romeo]

Will our Eurofighter be able to use the Iris-T against ground targets ? Arcording to Diehl Defence, the Iris-t was enhanced with an air-to-surface engagement capability and it was successfully verified in September 2016 by a test firing from a Norwegian F-16.

Source: https://www.diehl.com/defence/en/press-and-media/news/royal-norwegian-air-force-tested-iris-t-in-air-to-ground-mission/

[TLTeo]

Depends on the new fancy FLIR system I guess? Even the R-60 is supposed to have some sort of capability like that, which the Hind used, so if that becomes a thing I don't see why the IRIS-T (or the AIM-9X, which also should have that capability) wouldn't either.

[M1Combat]

Depends if the jet we get is modeled as one before or after that date...

[QuiGon]

14 hours ago, TLTeo said:

Depends on the new fancy FLIR system I guess? Even the R-60 is supposed to have some sort of capability like that, which the Hind used, so if that becomes a thing I don't see why the IRIS-T (or the AIM-9X, which also should have that capability) wouldn't either.

 

Indeed, currently ground vehicles are not an appropriate target type for IR guided A/A-missiles. There is no IR simulation for ground vehicles in DCS yet.

[WarbossPetross]

14 часов назад, TLTeo сказал:

Depends on the new fancy FLIR system I guess? Even the R-60 is supposed to have some sort of capability like that, which the Hind used, so if that becomes a thing I don't see why the IRIS-T (or the AIM-9X, which also should have that capability) wouldn't either.

R-60 was not supposed to work against ground targets... but it did. Soviet troops in Afghanistan have had to take creative liberties with their equipment, including, in particular, using their R-60 missiles as IR Mavericks at nighttime. It won't work with DCS at the moment because game engine (one notable exception being the sun), but ED has mentioned something about a global IR simulation mechanism, in which case there won't be any reason for both R-60 and IRIS-T not to work like that. A heat source is a heat source, missile see - missile go.

[Spurts]

you can use IR missiles against aircraft on the ground however.

[MAXsenna]

Little OT.
So this is pure bulshit then?
The excerpt is from "The History of SAS" by Colin Armstrong AKA Chris Ryan describing an incident during the Gulf 1.



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[TLTeo]

I have no idea what "it goes for center mass" means in this context (it's not even correct - in physics it would be the center *of* mass, which you can't measure with an imaging detector), so yes, it sounds like BS, mostly.

 

If there is no signal detected above the background in the single pixel of an old AIM-9 the missile should just not guide, I don't see how it could magically see an image of its target(s) with a non-imaging seeker, even more magically measure the mass distribution of said target(s) despite not being able to detect them (and imaging data giving exactly zero information about the distribution of mass in whatever is detected), and guide itself to a part of a target it is neither detecting, nor capable of imaging should it be detected.

 

I suppose it's true that if one of the engines had been on, it may have been detected by the missile though. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by TLTeo

[Spectre11]

Centre mass in this case means multiple closely spaced IR sources and the seeker opts for the centroid. Similar to two engine exhausts and the missile aiming for the centre in between. Any halfway modern missile probably features algorithms to discern between right and false targets. For an IRIS-T the aircraft must tell it to look for aircraft, or ground targets. Simply fitting the missile isn't enough, even if previously integrated. The missile itself can be manually targeted as well, without support from an aircraft sensor.

[TLTeo]

58 minutes ago, Spectre11 said:

Centre mass in this case means multiple closely spaced IR sources and the seeker opts for the centroid.

Makes sense, thanks. I still think it's unlikely this would be something a missile can do when it detects no heat sources though. Unless the text meant that it was detecting both vehicles despite them having their engines off, which I guess may be possible depending on how long they had been sitting in the Sun?

[MAXsenna]

Thanks guys, I might have worded myself a little incorrectly. Have anyone else seen evidence that A-10s or other allied aircraft fired Sidewinders on ground targets in Operation Desert Storm?

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[Frederf]

MiG-21 AA missiles had a documented instruction for firing at petroleum tanks.

[Harlikwin]

On 8/20/2021 at 10:05 AM, MAXsenna said:

Little OT.
So this is pure bulshit then?
The excerpt is from "The History of SAS" by Colin Armstrong AKA Chris Ryan describing an incident during the Gulf 1.



Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

 

Wow... 5^100 megafails as to how anything IR actually works... But thanks for the "Story"

 

Also that story is "full of a brown substance" if its attributed to "chris ryan" of B20 fame. They didn't have any vehicles... Ol Colon is famous for "walking".... 

 

And really, while A2A missiles can "lock" stuff on the ground, its pretty unlikely they will, at least modern ones, literally nothing about this "Story" passes the smell test.

 

 

On 8/20/2021 at 4:53 PM, MAXsenna said:

Thanks guys, I might have worded myself a little incorrectly. Have anyone else seen evidence that A-10s or other allied aircraft fired Sidewinders on ground targets in Operation Desert Storm?

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It can happen, the cubans in angloa claimed to do it, and the soviets in afghan, and there are stories of stuff like aim9b doing it. And while an MWIR seeker might see "something" on the ground, the sad reality is that it has just as much chance of being a warm rock during daytime as an "engine". 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Harlikwin

[QuiGon]

 

On 8/20/2021 at 2:23 PM, Spurts said:

you can use IR missiles against aircraft on the ground however.

 

Yes, because they are of the correct target type within the DCS engine: aircraft/helicopter, which ground vehicles are not:

 

On 8/20/2021 at 1:42 PM, QuiGon said:

 

Indeed, currently ground vehicles are not an appropriate target type for IR guided A/A-missiles. There is no IR simulation for ground vehicles in DCS yet.

 

[Rick50]

 

Eh... the story abt SAS being hit by 'Winders seems... like a "fishing story".  

 

AFAIK, the only instance I ever heard of from Desert Storm, where a an A2A missile used against a ground target, was when Canadian CF-18's were asked to try to destroy an Iraqi patrol boat trying to escape to Iranian waters. All the Hornets had was Sparrows, Sidewinders and 20mm. So they straffed the boat with Vulcan 20mm, but this did not have the desired effect and continued towards Iran. Just before breaking contact from a largely futile attack, one pilot managed to get a radar lock on the boat, and decided to see if the Sparrow would work. It fell short and did not impact the boat, so they disengaged, and the boat went to Iran. 

 

I know that A-10A's during Desert Storm did often fly night flights to find SCUD launchers, and apparently those pilots used the Maveric seeker image and cockpit screen as a makeshift "Flir night vision", as they didn't have anything like Tpods, nor FLIR, and I think they didn't even have night goggles either. Just an IFR night flight like so many airliners do, but with a Maveric image in a screen display! I don't believe that display had any other function, so not a true MFD. I wonder if the missile fired on them might have actually been a Maveric of some kind? Maybe not, as that has a rather large warhead. One might think the surviving missile fins would make it obvious, but I'd expect they had little time to investigate the incident right that night.

 

 

[Sabre_Ewan]

Unless this is simulated incorrectly in DCS, a sidewinder with no lock will simply fly straight. It seems like a strange thing to do, but theoretically possible that all he had available was a sidewinder and he lined up the nose and fired it boresight. More like an unguided rocket.