Red Flag Su-30 MKI Lectures Video

[RedTiger]

@RedTiger:

I wasn't commenting on the plane, but on this infomercial

 

Why do you say it was an "infomercial"?

[nscode]

Because it appears to give you information, but actually is actually a commercial... that's what an infomercial is ;)

 

It gives 0 new information and is basically an FAQ that sums up all the peaces in one neat 15 minute lecture, the point of which is "wee need more F-22". "The F-35? Don't ask me about the F-35, I was only paid to talk about the F-22"

 

If the purpose of the lecture was to really provide personnel with such important information, like what are the specific strengths and weaknesses of their hardware vs some other, it would not be limited to 15 min. But that is the max time any politician can keep concentrated on one subject, so it couldn't be any longer.

 

 

Not that any of above is "bad" per se. In the end it's all business, I just don't think we can get anything useful from it :)

[RedTiger]

Because it appears to give you information, but actually is actually a commercial... that's what an infomercial is ;)

 

It gives 0 new information and is basically an FAQ that sums up all the peaces in one neat 15 minute lecture, the point of which is "wee need more F-22". "The F-35? Don't ask me about the F-35, I was only paid to talk about the F-22"

 

If the purpose of the lecture was to really provide personnel with such important information, like what are the specific strengths and weaknesses of their hardware vs some other, it would not be limited to 15 min. But that is the max time any politician can keep concentrated on one subject, so it couldn't be any longer.

 

 

Not that any of above is "bad" per se. In the end it's all business, I just don't think we can get anything useful from it :)

 

Fair enough. I did find some insights from watching it, like seeing a USAF pilot suggest that gunzo might not be the exception to the rule for the F-22. In addition to what I've already mentioned, it was nice to hear a USAF pilot talk about Cope India in reasonable terms. Good gravy, there's so much stupid crap brought up about that. People need to wrap their minds around what "dissimilar air combat" means. Yes, it was certainly told from his point of view and he didn't hide that. People's points of view are often more insightful than anything else!

 

Second, I don't know much about the Su-30MKI. All I ever read is that its a Russian plane with Western avionics. Well, apparently not ALL Western. I would have assumed they would want whatever datalink NATO uses (Link-16?) before participating in Red Flag. Also didn't know about the TV nozzles. I thought the MKI had full 3D vectoring. Maybe the pilot is mistaken.

 

As for the length and level of content, you'd be mistaken if you think that all military briefs are detailed. It depends on the audience. If its the higher-ups, its possible they're very much like a business presentation (or perhaps the other way around? Maybe business communications as a discipline jacked it from the military?). You give the most pertinent info, keep it very simple -- like an executive summary. Your audience can read all the foot notes and details on their own. 15 to 30 minutes is not unheard of. When I had to do these things in college, I had often had to keep them to 10. :P It isn't far-fetched at all to have such a complex and multifaceted argument like "we need more F-22s" to be this short and simple.

 

I doubt his audience is superior officers, though, so we can keep it at infomericial. :) From the looks of it, it might just be a bunch of enthusiasts or something.

 

EDIT: I found it jaw-dropping that he accuses the French of showing up for little more than ELINT. Like they came there just to ninja all the radio waves.

Edited November 7, 2008 by RedTiger

[Рустам]

And were is videos? :huh:

[nscode]

I doubt his audience is superior officers, though, so we can keep it at infomericial. :) From the looks of it, it might just be a bunch of enthusiasts or something.

 

 

The Advantures of Raptor is filmed in front of a live studio audience :D

[GGTharos]

What better place than RF to do it at? ;)

 

The French sell stuff everywhere, it's a boon to say 'this jammer will work on X'.

 

EDIT: I found it jaw-dropping that he accuses the French of showing up for little more than ELINT. Like they came there just to ninja all the radio waves.

[DarkWanderer]

Anyone has a saved copy?

[RedTiger]

And were is videos? :huh:

 

Removed! By the person who posted them, I think. There were hints of this in the comments. Was there anything in those videos that would even remotely get that pilot fired or get someone in legal trouble? I sure didn't think so.

[Cosmonaut]

Anyone has a saved copy?

 

I just ran a search for the title of this thread on Utube and ta-da: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Red+Flag+Su-30+MKI+Lectures+Video&search_type=&aq=-1&oq=

[Steve Davies]

RT

 

I think that some of the comments he made were politically embarrassing, and I would imagine that is why the videos were removed.

 

As for the 'revelation' about the French gathering intel, that's something that *every* country does against one another in these exercises. In that sense, this was a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

There was quite a lot of reading between the lines that you could do with this presentation.

[Steve Davies]

There's something of an ID matrix F-15 pilots use to identify bogeys, IFF is just one of several things they may need to do. Lockon has IFF as this thing thats always on when in reality you have to actually "interrogate" the contacts by pressing a button. Did he mention IFF? I only remember the issues with datalink. Man, that would be the first thing I'd change. Not being able to plug into the link with everyone else is a big disadvantage.

 

RT

 

The real issue that this guy was hinting at was the inability of the Su-30 to autonomously generate an EID on the contact, either through Mode 4 IFF or technical/software based means.

 

That the IAF wasn't on the net (data link) is clearly also a problem, but the DL on its own does not generate an ROE-quality EID - you have to have AWACS or a series of onboard systems to do that.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Steve Davies

[RedTiger]

RT

 

I think that some of the comments he made were politically embarrassing, and I would imagine that is why the videos were removed.

 

As for the 'revelation' about the French gathering intel, that's something that *every* country does against one another in these exercises. In that sense, this was a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

There was quite a lot of reading between the lines that you could do with this presentation.

 

Hey Steve! Awesome to have you here!! :)

 

No revelation here about gathering the intel. Like you said, if you don't do that type of thing at something like Red Flag, you're probably alone.

 

The "jaw-dropping" part was just as you said, I couldn't believe he'd just come out and say that the way he did. Plus the part about "God help us" if we fight a war with the French. It was disbelief of how harsh it was.

[Cosmonaut]

I wouldn't get bogged down in what he said to be honest. Soldiers aren't diplomats and as long as it's with in reason then I can filter out inevitable patriotic bias and concentrate on the info presented... I mean yeah it was harsh but I've seen footage of F14 pilots that had written "RagHeads" with an even harsher disclaimer on the inside of their canopy. Also I bet the French say similar things regarding the USAF as well. In fact they probably all get up to similar things, I was watching a documentary where a British soldier pretty much ripped into the professionalism of the US soldiers in Iraq. Rivalries, preconceptions and stereotyping are to be expected from all sides, especially among the allies.

[Kula66]

The real issue that this guy was hinting at was the inability of the Su-30 to autonomously generate an EID on the contact, either through Mode 4 IFF or technical/software based means.

 

I think it is worth remembing that the SUs were not operating their electronics in full - only 'Test mode' whatever that means.

 

Apparently, there were a load of other lectures that got pulled concerning the J-11 and J-10.

 

I think the bottom line was a good pilot in an F-15 can kill a rookie in a Su-30 most of the time, but put good pilots in both and the USAF needs the F-22. Oh and modern jammers are very effective, allowing even planes like the Mig-21 with mods to get close and lethal!

[Steve Davies]

I think it is worth remembing that the SUs were not operating their electronics in full - only 'Test mode' whatever that means.

 

Kula

 

I don't buy that as an explanation: you don't travel half way around the world and then embarrass yourself in front of a host nation you have worked hard to convince that they should let you attend.

 

On a practical level, being morted continuously in the first week, and then fratting continuously in the second week is not something that it going to impress. Why? Because it impacts on the the training objectives and learning outcomes of all the other Blue Air forces. My belief is that if they had had the capability, they would have used it.

 

I think the bottom line was a good pilot in an F-15 can kill a rookie in a Su-30 most of the time, but put good pilots in both and the USAF needs the F-22.

 

Probably a reasonable 'rule of thumb', but I don't think that it actually means anything. But it will never be as simple as that, as many of the last air-to-air engagements of the last 20 years have shown - there are so many other factors that will influence the outcome:pilotfly:

[Steve Davies]

Hey Steve! Awesome to have you here!! :)

 

No revelation here about gathering the intel... It was disbelief of how harsh it was.

 

Thanks, RT :)

 

I see now where you were coming from :doh:

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[RvETito]

So F-22 can obliterate an entire air force by just showing up. They seem so dangerous that they have to fly alone like F-117, I wonder how many of those one million kills are TK's :D Everyone is talking how they perfrom against other aircraft but more important is how they perform against each other. Is an F-22 able to detect another F-22, at what range and stuff. That's the kind of stuff I want to hear about. And I bet that's the first thing americans have done- to test F-22's in 1v1, 2v2 and many vs. many. Because the most important thing when you have such aircraft is what happens when someone else around the world produces aircraft with the same capabilites.

[GGTharos]

So F-22 can obliterate an entire air force by just showing up. They seem so dangerous that they have to fly alone like F-117, I wonder how many of those one million kills are TK's :D

 

In theory very few if any - EID FTW ;)

 

Everyone is talking how they perfrom against other aircraft but more important is how they perform against each other. Is an F-22 able to detect another F-22, at what range and stuff. That's the kind of stuff I want to hear about. And I bet that's the first thing americans have done- to test F-22's in 1v1, 2v2 and many vs. many. Because the most important thing when you have such aircraft is what happens when someone else around the world produces aircraft with the same capabilites.

 

Yeah, but I think that will be kept a secret for the next 30 years.

[Vekkinho]

So RF was embarassing moment for IAF?!!

 

I find it hard to believe in test mode theory.

[GGTharos]

I don't think it was too embarassing. They had no flying violations. The rest was pretty much due to system incompatibilities. I imagine they learned a bunch of stuff, though perhaps not what they had wanted to learn exactly.

[Mugatu]

^^^

 

This bit is hehe

 

IAF, "Hey I've got a contact on my nose, 22 miles, friendly or hostile?"

AWACS, "There are no hostiles within 40 miles of you."

IAF, "FOX!"

 

It's better you die instead i die ehehhe.

 

BTW F-22s were RX only on Link-16. So they can't hang around and add to the Picture

So RF was embarassing moment for IAF?!!

 

I find it hard to believe in test mode theory.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, that was funny ;)

 

Where did you hear that F-22's were RX only? Those guys are a major link-16 terminal, but perhaps they were flying some sort of mission profile that had them receiving only.

[p_o_d_2_2]

Is he comparing the -MKI to just a default F-15C or one of the upgraded ones with AESA?

[GGTharos]

He's comparing is to the MSA-equipped F-15.

[tflash]

Yeah, that was funny ;)

 

Where did you hear that F-22's were RX only? Those guys are a major link-16 terminal, but perhaps they were flying some sort of mission profile that had them receiving only.

 

He heard the same as me: F-22 can only receive, not send to link-16. They have another datalink system that is F-22-only.

 

There is a major funding programme underway to enable other assets to receive data from F-22.

 

This siutation has been described in interviews with F-22 crew in Combat Aircraft, AirForces Monthly, Air International and also in Aviation Week.