Tomcat Stick Grip

[Baz000]

This is going to seem like an extremely ridiculous question but I genuinely am unable to devise an answer on my own and there isn't many photographs I can find of pilots actually holding the center stick... And i'm using a Virpil VFX stick grip with 200mm curved extension which mimics the F-14 stick grip.

This is really the only picture I could find

My question is how did the pilot grip the stick with their hand in order to work the trim effectively while wear out the thumb portion of their flying gloves? I've seen anecdotes on the internet saying the pilot was constantly working the trim in the pattern.

The way this pilot is holding the stick grip looks like his thumb is boxed in between the DLC wheel and the weapons select... If you need to muscle the flight controls, I guess this is the hand grip to use as it provides the most mechanical leverage with your arm.

In the image above, if he were to just simply try to pivot his thumb up to the trim hat without changing the way his hand is gripping the stick absent some contortionist act, it doesn't seem physically possible. But let's say it is possible to pivot the thumb from that position, it still wouldn't rest on the hat in the manner described by pilots where they are wearing out the thumb tip of their flight gloves, as I have read. It would rest far lower, on the bottom most knuckle of the thumb.

The reason why this is important for me to know is that I have had a hell of a hard time trying to trim the Tomcat just to stay in a stabilized hands off trimmed state, the best I have have been able to do is trim it to a semi- hands off state. But I noticed I only was able to even achieve this only when changing the way my hand grips the stick grip completely... Where my thumb is resting over the top of the trim hat or the pickle button and not on the opposite side of the stick directly over the DLC thumb wheel.

Doing this completely reduced my occurrence of pitch PIOs while trying to fly level... I do understand the basic principles of trimming and needing to adjust it based on changes in power, aircraft configuration and altitude.

When I get a chance I'll take pictures of how I grip the stick for trimming level so you guys can see.

TLDR: How do Tomcat pilots generally actually grip the control stick to do very fine movement like in formation flying to "two finger and thumb" the grip, the shape of the stick is extremely unusual and absolutely unique to the Tomcat. Also I realize this may even be entirely subjective and another thing left to pilot preference and prerogative.

I get the muscle the plane around grip (pilot holding grip picture above) but how about a more "delicate" grip? Like for formation flying or cruising, etc, etc?

Sorry if this seems very pedantic, honestly not trying to be... I just wanted to be very specific with what I was asking and why. Thanks

Edited October 21, 2021 by Baz000

[lunaticfringe]

I guess this is the new rivet counting...?

Across the thousands of people qualified to fly the F-14 in two services, who meet the weight and height requirements/limits of said services to get the ride, you're going to have a wide disparity of hand sizes.  Some might be an absolute match, where their opposable thumb can rotate around the weapon selector and go up to the trim, underneath, hit the selector, but then have to rotate their palm to key the pickle.  Others are going to have to grip down a half inch or more to comfortably manipulate the trim while performing basic cruise, station keeping, and AAR work. 

Every single one of them found the subconscious routine that worked for them, making the shift up, down, or around to do what needed to be done.  You likely already have as well, but see a video and wonder if you're missing something that your own physiology can't match.  It didn't much match up 1:1 for anybody else, either.  

Just fly the plane, my man.  

[Baz000]

I mean, I did say I understand if some people find my question quite pedantic (IE: rivet counting) 

But it is IMHO a legit question in my mind and any flight instructor worth their salt has always observed how a student holds the stick/yoke if the student is exhibiting the habit of continually entering into PIOs.

Some FIs will even make the student hold a pencil in the hand to demonstrate just how to delicately hold the stick/yoke.

If it didn't make any difference in how the aircraft flys just by changing your ham fisted death grip on the stick to a light touch, it wouldn't even be mentioned during flight instruction.

The saying "Smooth is fast, and fast is smooth" comes to mind.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Baz000

[lunaticfringe]

2 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

I mean, I did say I understand if some people find my question quite pedantic (IE: rivet counting) 

But it is a legit question in my mind and any flight instructor worth their salt has always observed how a student holds the stick/yoke if the student is exhibiting the habit of continually entering into PIOs.

Some FIs will even make the student hold a pencil in the hand to demonstrate just how to delicately hold the stick/yoke.

If it didn't make any difference in how the aircraft toys just by changing your ham fisted death grip on the stick to a light touch, it wouldn't even be mentioned during flight instruction.

The saying "Smooth is fast, and fast is smooth" comes to mind.

Are you transitioning from touch and gos to pulling 6.5-9.0G in basic flight instruction?  Because that environment is going to have a wholly different set of grip and feel requirements versus pattern work and two-ship formation flying.  A person is going to change how they grip to match the circumstances.  Guy climbed into a plane to demonstrate the controls, isn't strapped in, and thrashed the stick a bit, with his paw in his reflex position to throw it about- there's nothing to be inferred about how he handles it in delicate moments.

This same line of conversation was had when the TM F/A-18 grip dropped, because it's "uncomfortable" to get the pinky paddle with your grip choked up to work the weapon block.  It's that way for a reason, and those controls aren't going to all be accessible to every right hand all the time in all circumstances- the human body isn't made that way across the line of production. 

[Dannyvandelft]

I use the VKB Tomcat grip with curved extension. Love it. No issues. Can reach everything perfectly. Make sure your stick is turned slightly to the left for comfort. And I use auto pilot in long stretches of level flight to and from the AO.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Baz000]

3 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

Are you transitioning from touch and gos to pulling 6.5-9.0G in basic flight instruction?  Because that environment is going to have a wholly different set of grip and feel requirements versus pattern work and two-ship formation flying.  A person is going to change how they grip to match the circumstances.  Guy climbed into a plane to demonstrate the controls, isn't strapped in, and thrashed the stick a bit, with his paw in his reflex position to throw it about- there's nothing to be inferred about how he handles it in delicate moments.

Right, so there-in lies the heart/meat of my question... Clearly, if flying ACM or an acrobatic display, the way the Tomcat pilot in the only image I can find of such, is holding the stick that would conceivably provide the best physical hand grip to give the maximum amount of leverage possible onto the flight controls, other than also taking the left hand and placing it also on the stick and just using brute force.

The question I have, is how is it held in such delicate moments as you mentioned?

There isn't a million ways to hold a stick grip, I mean the human hand is the human hand... You can't change the way the opposible thumb operates on the human body or how the fingers wrap around it.

[lunaticfringe]

31 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

There isn't a million ways to hold a stick grip, I mean the human hand is the human hand... You can't change the way the opposible thumb operates on the human body or how the fingers wrap around it.

No, there are just millions of hands of varying sizes, thicknesses, palm widths, finger lengths, etc.  This is a machine built to one specific set of guidelines, with the flight controls made to a given standard by a number of suppliers depending on the year of the contract, and all of them conform to that original baseline.  The hands that held it, didn't.  While the basic arrangement of the hand for all users apply (save for one), the grip plays to the mean.  Everyone else on the high and low end would need to make small or large enough adjustments that, at the exercise, you'd likely say they were holding it "wrong", because they're a bit higher, lower, or rotated one way or another around the length of the column.  

On a similar line of standardized weapon arrangements to the mean, if human grips and individual comfort weren't different, Magpul, Hogue, and a hundred other firms wouldn't exist. But if you can't change the weapon, you change your grasp. 

40 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

The question I have, is how is it held in such delicate moments as you mentioned?

With the right hand. 

*pulls handle*

[Baz000]

You completely are twisting my point around in every way you possibly can and refusing to even adequately address the base question I posed.

Anybody who has actually had some semblance of flight instruction knows exactly what I'm talking about, it is the difference between using brute force of your hand to displace the stick (to enact large movements on the flight controls like during BFM) vs using light pressure of a few fingers and the thumb for far more precise movement with far less magnitude for example holding a 500ft/min climb vs your VSI needle jumping around everywhere. And while doing this, being able to reflexively actuate the trim hat without even thinking, so it becomes instinctual... Much like the boot on the rudder or hands on the throttles in principle.

You can't even engage the altitude hold autopilot if you are outside the +-200 ft/min envelope, so you need to get the plane close to level.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Baz000

[Victory205]

The most important aspect of controlling the aircraft is not the grip technique, it’s having your right arm resting at the proper height while performing maneuvers that require a light touch- formation, tanking, landing, tracking, etc.

I took my knee board apart, modified the base, and rebuilt it so it was at the proper height with the typical stack of cards or Nav plates clipped to it. 

If you are using a side stick or center with your arm hovering in mid air, you are practicing bleeding. Cut a notch in your chair to get the stick lower, your wife won’t mind…

[Baz000]

I'll post some pics of my stick setup once my phone finishes charging so I can take pics. Thanks for that input, I never thought about the resting height of of the right arm... Resting the arm onto the leg is important tho because it gives you an anchor point and a frame of reference of displacement. I do normally rest my arm onto my leg but maybe it isn't in the right position it ought to be in.

Still, my main issue is trying to use the trim hat on the stick while preventing the occurrence of getting into a nasty PIO in pitch in just trying to do something like leveling out the plane.

I don't understand the phrase "practicing bleeding" could you elaborate on that? This is the first time I have heard of that phrase.

Always learning new things everyday!

Edited October 22, 2021 by Baz000

[SCPGrinder66]

He means you'll never get it right with your arm hovering out there in space, so you're practicing a bad technique. If you can lower your stick height so that you can rest your arm on your leg or on something that can be a consistent height, it makes a world of difference - especially when you get into formation flying or tanking. 

You have to continuously trim the tomcat, so find a position where you fly the majority of the time with your thumb on the trim hat. When you get into ACM, trim is the last thing you are worrying about, so your thumb goes to the weapons selector, chaff/flares, etc.    When in the pattern, you'll mainly be on trim but once you get in on speed you can relax a bit. On final you may go to DLC for a couple quick hits so your thumb would be like in the pic you posted.  With more practice it becomes subconscious, you don't even think about where your thumb is.    

[Baz000]

So I went from my 200mm curved Virpil extension to using 100mm plus 50mm put together to make 150mm, so basically a reduction of 50mm in height... I tried also with the 100mm + 75mm but I thought it was still too high.

https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-flightstick-extension-200mm.html

https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-flightstick-extension.html

I feel like the 100+50 is better than the 200, seems like not only I can anchor my arm to be more solid but also my thumb seems to transition way better to hover over the trim hat from the aft part of the DLC wheel (like tip of thumb resting no more forward than the middle of the DLC wheel covering over the aft portion of it) no contortionist tricks needed to move the thumb outboard, swinging under the weapon select coolie hat and up and over onto the trim hat!

Will take some pics and video when I get a chance to. 

[Baz000]

I had edited my post above but lost everything, I had the individual photos up and tried to explain my observations and my setup a little bit, anyways I changed that and decided to just share my google drive folder where I have the pictures uploaded and explain in this post just a little of what I came across. Maybe it may help someone with their own F-14 setup at home too.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11WKKR9n6XIjHFxQQ8EJRPT63MQW7Igas?usp=sharing

some of the pictures depict me holding the stick like you see alot of pilots doing in the plane, just like the top most image in my first post... The problem I have with doing this is in certain more "delicate" flight regimes aside from ACM or whatever, I'm personally unable to access my trim hat at all, let alone quickly enough. I get boxed in by the weapon selector switch (you can see my thumb basically hooked underneath when I extend it out to move it to the trim hat while not changing my overall grip onto the stick)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vZAwDmiTlC_vgEpIC6nWryZ0k1qjM7jW/view?usp=sharing

Reason I have that Virpil image of the stick above is because that concave portion in front of the pickle button, I came up with the idea of changing my grip entirely onto the stick and resting my index finger into that spot, my middle finger resting onto the trigger and the finger just below the middle finger resting onto the bottom lip of the red trigger. I found that this offered me the most control for leveling off the plane in a trimmed state by drastically reducing the occurrence of my PIOs in pitch. I was able to shift around from hovering my thumb over the top of the trim hat and the pickle button very quickly... I also could fly without pushing down on the pickle button as well. But 1 downside was my hand was elevated again 1 inch or so above the hand rest on the stick, so I couldn't use that to stabilize myself. It works for more "delicate" portions of flight but requires shifting the grip around for any combat (for example, can't really manipulate the weapon selector from this type of hand position)

Then, I thought about what I do when flying the Hornet, which I learned from watching alot of Hornet youtube videos... But this particular technique was from GB's youtube (thanks GB!) and that was pretty much the same between the Tomcat and Hornet grips, choke the neck with the web of the thumb and finger all you want... Can even put a death grip on it if you so desire. But again for more "delicate" phases of flight, shifting the hand lower onto the grip and anchoring the thumb in the case of the Hornet right in between the stick and the weapon selector hat on the left of the stick.

I thought, why can't I try something similar with the Tomcat? So I figured out i'd put the tip of my thumb pressing against the center raised portion of the DLC wheel (on the Virpil stick they added like 1 serration raised right in the center) and the pad of my thumb resting on the aft half of the DLC wheel... I tried this out for a while, I was able to reach the trim hat almost like reflex and I could reach the pickle button too, as well as manipulate the weapon selector well.

So I think i'm going to try flying like this for a while and see how it goes!

Ah, as far as stick resting height and how the arm anchors to the leg? I did lower my setup by 50mm from originally 200mm. This seems to put more downward force from my arm to my leg and roughly comes to the upper thigh and centered on the forearm. I think this helped me kill some of my PIOs because of having more of an anchoring force applied to my arm vs. before with 50mm more. Also by doing this, my Virpil stick base is giving me more resistance which is causing me to apply more force to move the stick too, so this stops the pitch PIOs dead in its tracks because it takes far more pressure even, too.

In regards to cutting a hole in my chair and the wife won't mind, LOL what is a wife?? JK, I would have considered it if I had a cheap throw away chair... But I have a Secret Labs Titan and while the non existent wife may not mind lol, I sure wouldn't like to mutilate my chair LOL, especially if it falls apart after from use. I mean, if I could have it professionally done by an upholstery shop, I feel like it would last long and be durable.

Just wanted to say thanks to Victory205! I think your chief advice about changing stick height never really occurred to me, because I was already feeling my arm resting on my leg with the 200mm curved extension. But after reading what you had to say, I tried lowering to 175mm and I still felt like it was too high... Then I tried 150mm and felt like the stick offers great resistance and centering force! As well as way more downward force from my arm resting on my leg, providing a really nice anchor! Thanks again Victory205.

[Victory205]

Are you a shooter, Baz000? Pistols, rifles or both?

[Baz000]

Have shot both and Shotgun too!

[RustBelt]

How do Fighter pilots not wear through the thumb of their gloves you ask?

[Baz000]

I have those same exact gloves, I got them to keep my skin oils off my metal control sticks... They are so good, I want another pair! I tried making my own by cutting up standard Nomex flight gloves but it turned out to be a nightmare craft project.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Baz000

[Victory205]

I see now, it was Lunaticfringe who made the Magpul reference. I asked because the shooting world is replete with instructors and students who over complicate a relatively simple endeavor. They spend hours talking about finger or thumb placement, when ten seconds would suffice.  A lot of that is marketing by people with big egos and little brains trying to make a buck.

On 10/21/2021 at 10:55 PM, SCPGrinder66 said:

He means you'll never get it right with your arm hovering out there in space, so you're practicing a bad technique. If you can lower your stick height so that you can rest your arm on your leg or on something that can be a consistent height, it makes a world of difference - especially when you get into formation flying or tanking. 

You have to continuously trim the tomcat, so find a position where you fly the majority of the time with your thumb on the trim hat. When you get into ACM, trim is the last thing you are worrying about, so your thumb goes to the weapons selector, chaff/flares, etc.    When in the pattern, you'll mainly be on trim but once you get in on speed you can relax a bit. On final you may go to DLC for a couple quick hits so your thumb would be like in the pic you posted.  With more practice it becomes subconscious, you don't even think about where your thumb is.    

^^^^^ This is your answer. Well stated.

[Baz000]

I mean there are alot of things that are frivolous in the firearms world, but then again there are some few that aren't, for example magazine grip extension that gives my pinky somewhere to rest other than hanging in the air right below the base of my pistol mag mag on my sub-compact really makes a hell of a difference in my comfort and grip... As an example of course, then again the Houge slip on grip I had ripped apart and broke not too long after installing it because I decided to drill a hole into it. By far the best modification I made was adding a 1911 type style "beaver tail" to it.

Anyways, as far as my F-14 stick setup... I was flying with my kneeboard on and now its too low! More trial and error needed on my part I guess and time just testing. I get that it takes practice but getting the "right" practice makes you not learn bad habits and have to undo those later on (which is usually much harder) 

In firefighting, the process mindset is similar... Sure, you could pick up a ladder from the ground in probably a million different ways, but the accepted practice is to use your own natural body mechanics and certain points of mechanical leverage to your advantage to mitigate risk so you don't bust your back and to make the process time efficient so you can effect rescue from a window.

We use hose too that is sometimes coiled up in rolls, to unroll it you either step on one end (best practice for safety reasons) or you hold it with your hand and throw it to deploy so we can connect multiple lines together. If you want an even faster deployment(tho you risk having twists), you can even leave the house coiled and connected to the water supply and just apply water pressure... Like magic, the hose will expand and self deploy, yeah it's all about working with physics and not against it and utilizing particular techniques that maximize gains vs effort put in. 

Look, the point of my question I thought was fairly simple albeit perhaps far too detail orientated for the liking of some people. I have about 5 different stick grips I use with my Virpil base depending on what aircraft in DCS I choose to fly. I can use my thumb to tap trim hats on all of them except for my Tomcat grip without drastically changing the way my whole hand holds the stick vs the natural grip by the "neck". Maybe my hand is too small, IDK. I think the suggestion of lowering the stick helped me some by changing the angle of my hand slightly.

I went scouring the internet to see if maybe I could find some more image references, I found some cockpit footage on YouTube but they were D models (so no weapon select to get your thumb stuck in between DLC wheel) but not only were they D models, the pilots didn't ever seem to move their thumb to trim (so I guess they were already in a trimmed state) all of the pilots were holding the stick grip pretty much the same way as I referenced in the image of my first post... Something interesting that I did see tho was similar to what I've seen video of Hornet pilots do which is transition to grabbing the stick with the left hand onto the top. But unlike Hornet pilots, the Tomcat pilot kept his right hand on on the stick too, still at the neck of the grip. I noticed that they did that when cranking their neck back over their right shoulder to look behind them. Guess he did that to stabilize the stick so if he had some inadvertent movement from moving his shoulder his left hand could fight any unintended control input.

I'd just like to be able to use my add-on Tomcat grip to it's full potential is all, I can't change the way God made my hand... Right now it really is frustrating me and I'm fighting trim and PIOs. I try tapping the trim, I try holding it in short duration of around a second...

Maybe I should try flying with the control indicator on for a while, just to make sure I'm not inadvertently giving some kind of uncommanded stick inputs.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Baz000

[Baz000]

Oh, another thing I just thought of... I used the in DCS cockpit as a guide to how to "twist" my stick. Does the Tomcat have a slight counter-clockwise rotation to the stick? I basically used the hypotenuse(the angular point where it meets the triangle base appears to be roughly the symmetrical center) of that serrated triangle part of the stick to help me center my stick to roughly what the in DCS one looks like. I figured this has to be the case, because without this rotation your wrist is actually rotated to an unnatural position while holding the stick if it didn't have such a slight rotated orientation.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Baz000

[draconus]

Of course you need the twist on the grip if you have it center mounted, just like RL, but not the axis. And one thing - PIO, as definition says, comes from your inputs so it's rather stick technique, aircraft anticipation and practice at play here rather than hand and finger placement. Maybe a bit of deadzone setting can help you?

[Slant]

Funny topic. I typically rest my thumb on the weapon selecter wheel, between trim hat and the actual weapon selector switch. I trim constantly, so that's the natural position when I need a light touch. I typically only put my thumb in that super ergonomic place above the DLC when I'm doing big maneuvers/ACM. That grip on that video is just him showing off himself sitting in the cockpit, I'd showcase the grip the same way, but it's not how I would fly it.

 

Not a pilot, so ignore me for SME input.

 

I think this is a funny topic, because at some point the little curious person in me was wondering if the weapon selector writing would wear off quickly if other people rested their thumb there as well. 

[Baz000]

I found this video, it kinda explains and demonstrates my particular problem with the Virpil VFX F-14 stick, he shows himself hitting the pickle button but I experience basically the same problem trying to tap my trim button.

Same youtuber @Jabbers_ created a video talking about the VKB stick offering (made from 3D laser scan on cooperation with HB apparently) and makes mention that the stick body has more thickness to it and that the ergonomics feel better than the Virpil stick (the one I currently have) 

Also it seems to me like the weapon selection switch over the top of the DLC wheel on the Virpil VFX stick pops out farther (so it is closer to getting hung on your thumb) than the VKB design. Also, if you look at the left side of the stick where the DLC wheel is located, it looks like the VKB stick has a lower height which gives it a larger gap between that part of the stick and the bottom of the weapon select portion...

In layman's terms the VKB offering seems to have a longer, fatter neck and a shorter weapons select switch compared to the Virpil VFX grip I have. thusly giving your thumb more maneuver room to hit that pesky pickle button or trim hat!

I also found this video, you can see on the other grips the thumb moves real easy without effort, when he gets to the trim hat on the Virpil VFV grip he needs to retract his thumb back, bending at the top knuckle and sliding along the in-board side of the weapon selection switch. (wearing those gloves help some too I bet) He also presses the pickle button but not with the thumb but rather his pointer finger, demonstrating the button build itself.

I did see something that might help me, he seems to have the orientation of his thumb sideways instead of vertical (like I have been doing) I'll try giving my thumb that sideways orientation along the side of the stick instead of having it resting in a vertical orientation, by doing that it should change my orientation of my top knuckle on the thumb 90 degrees or so... Thus extending the thumb outboard should be more in a sideways direction (giving a greater chance to clear the weapon selection switch coolie) instead of a vertical axis.

Sorta like the lift vector in a bank attitude vs level, think of the extension of the thumb like the flight path of the jet. I'll try a few things out and see how it goes, it pretty much is just up to trial and error for me right now.

I have even had the thought of doing some surgery on my weapon selection coolie to make the shaft it sits on shorter, like the VKB offering... I think to test that, placing the switch to SP/PH and trying to trim and hit the pickle button, etc would verify if that field surgery would physically improve the ergonomics for me. I'm just worried about screwing up the push down function unintentionally for switching between Sparrow to Phoenix missiles. 

I'm sure other people probably have run into the same issue with the Virpil VFX stick, I wonder if they ended up switching it out for the VKB Tomcat Stick.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Baz000

[Baz000]

One stick is not like the other, clearly...

VS

No idea why Virpil made that weapon selection cookie stick out so darn far! I'm assuming that since the VKB stick was made from 3D laser scans from Heatblur that makes it a far more accurate representation of the real Tomcat stick grip compared to the Virpil offering?

Edited October 26, 2021 by Baz000

[Gunslinger22]

Look mate, I really don’t want to come off as brash, but I reckon you’re looking into this far too much. I’ve been flying with the VPC stick since its release and never once have I thought that its ergonomics or lack there of, were effecting my flying. 
 

It somewhat seems you just need to stop overthinking this entirely, could you imagine if any Tomcat pilot going through the RAG had similar issues over something as simple has hand placement on the stick? I know this isn’t very helpful but I genuinely think, much like PIO, you’re overcorrecting inducing more issues for yourself and your flying. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Gunslinger22