correct as is Spin recovery engages when pirouette parameters are met

[Hulkbust44]

As I understand it, when the pilot commands the aircraft into the pirouette maneuver with full stick back and in the direction of the rudder, the pirouette logic engages when IAS > 210 kts and >25 degrees AoA. When the aircraft in this condition gets to a high yaw rate, spin recovery kicks in ruining your pirouette. 

According to A1-F18AC-NFM-000  11.1.8.1 "High AOA Flying Qualities" 
"Spin display logic is modified during a
commanded pirouette to prevent nuisance spin indications"

I interpret this as the spin recovery logic being overruled when in a commanded pirouette. Hopefully this will be fixed in DCS.

pirouette _BUG.trk

[maxTRX]

10 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

As I understand it, when the pilot commands the aircraft into the pirouette maneuver with full stick back and in the direction of the rudder, the pirouette logic engages when IAS > 210 kts and >25 degrees AoA. When the aircraft in this condition gets to a high yaw rate, spin recovery kicks in ruining your pirouette. 

According to A1-F18AC-NFM-000  11.1.8.1 "High AOA Flying Qualities" 
"Spin display logic is modified during a
commanded pirouette to prevent nuisance spin indications"

I interpret this as the spin recovery logic being overruled when in a commanded pirouette. Hopefully this will be fixed in DCS.

pirouette _BUG.trk 1 MB · 2 downloads

Just running my mouth before testing this...  do you mean you saw the arrows on DDI's?  I tinkered with this few weeks ago and it seemed like entering with proper stick and rudder inputs produced the same results as entering with only rudder (at AoA >25) or the stick only.  I'd have to read up on this again but from what I remember, using full rudder at high alpha and slow a/s or using full stick left or right should produce the same results: a slow bank. The pirouette logic changes that from what I understand.

I haven't seen the spin arrows in a long time. I'll play with this later and see what else comes up... hopefully not the ground. 

[Hulkbust44]

Just running my mouth before testing this...  do you mean you saw the arrows on DDI's?  I tinkered with this few weeks ago and it seemed like entering with proper stick and rudder inputs produced the same results as entering with only rudder (at AoA >25) or the stick only.  I'd have to read up on this again but from what I remember, using full rudder at high alpha and slow a/s or using full stick left or right should produce the same results: a slow bank. The pirouette logic changes that from what I understand.
I haven't seen the spin arrows in a long time. I'll play with this later and see what else comes up... hopefully not the ground. 

Yes, I also got the recovery arrows. (Not to mention they were telling me to turn *into* the spin, but that's for another report)

Mobius708

[maxTRX]

19 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Yes, I also got the recovery arrows. (Not to mention they were telling me to turn *into* the spin, but that's for another report)

Mobius708
 

Yep, they got that one wrong too. (No... Gripes and Hulkbust44 are wrong ) Also, as you said there is no pirouette mode. I took it for a 'spin' and I was able to drive it into sustainable rotation. No gyrations in pitch, not sure how Hornets (lot 20) should behave but ... it was fun.

https://youtu.be/Xw4z-94IESo

As I mentioned in my first post, I ran my mouth before reading...  The arrows are correct (Figaro9 did some reading for us in the post below ), for upright, for inverted the arrows would point in the opposite.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Gripes323

[Figaro9]

Yup, that happens in dcs when you split throttles (and apply pirouette inputs at the same time). The arrows show up immediately  although they should not while pirouette input are held (for 25s) according below linked thesis.

For spin recovery training (v10.7), the initially applied pirouette inputs must be removed (after 1.5 turns), otherwise the arrows will not show up.

The f18 with v 10.7  should exit spin even with neutralized control inputs…delayed though.

But the direction of the arrows is right as far as I see:

„Antispin control input involves moving the control stick laterally  in the direction of the spin arrows.  Normally, this direction is into the direction of the spin if the spin is up-right. „

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3738&context=utk_gradthes

[maxTRX]

9 hours ago, Figaro9 said:

Yup, that happens in dcs when you split throttles (and apply pirouette inputs at the same time). The arrows show up immediately  although they should not while pirouette input are held (for 25s) according below linked thesis.

For spin recovery training (v10.7), the initially applied pirouette inputs must be removed (after 1.5 turns), otherwise the arrows will not show up.

The f18 with v 10.7  should exit spin even with neutralized control inputs…delayed though.

But the direction of the arrows is right as far as I see:

„Antispin control input involves moving the control stick laterally  in the direction of the spin arrows.  Normally, this direction is into the direction of the spin if the spin is up-right. „

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3738&context=utk_gradthes

When the Hornet's FM (w/ FCS) gets a promised rework this might apply. Currently, in a upright spin, neutralizing controls then following the arrow did not get me out of the spin. Moving the stick in the opposite direction did, especially when augmented with asymmetric thrust. As soon as the opposite stick is applied the rotation started slowing followed by a slight nose down. With couple of thousand feet to spare, the recovery is fairly easy. I'm talking the spin rate of 50, 60 deg/ sec.

Back to OP:  in my opinion, there is no pirouette mode, one way or another.

[Hulkbust44]

When the Hornet's FM (w/ FCS) gets a promised rework this might apply. Currently, in a upright spin, neutralizing controls then following the arrow did not get me out of the spin. Moving the stick in the opposite direction did, especially when augmented with asymmetric thrust. As soon as the opposite stick is applied the rotation started slowing followed by a slight nose down. With couple of thousand feet to spare, the recovery is fairly easy. I'm talking the spin rate of 50, 60 deg/ sec.
Back to OP:  in my opinion, there is no pirouette mode, one way or another.

Well, at least it was

Mobius708

[maxTRX]

1 hour ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Well, at least it was

 

Mobius708
 

 

2018... that's about right     I remember, at that time I could also pull off some radical rudder turns that currently would not be possible... and for a good reason according to more knowledgeable folks. There should be couple of vids on YT showing nose slice departures and the dreaded 'falling leaf'. (in pre-10.7 prom?) that were not modelled then and now either.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

the team have checked the replay and its working as intended, in the track its looks like you are in a spin when arrows appears, then it is no longer a pirouette and the spin logic that was developed is correct. 

thank you

[Hulkbust44]

On 11/23/2021 at 4:35 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

the team have checked the replay and its working as intended, in the track its looks like you are in a spin when arrows appears, then it is no longer a pirouette and the spin logic that was developed is correct. 

thank you

I just went and re-watched the track. The only reason I entered a spin was because the spin recovery logic kicked in as I was getting a decent pirouette going. When it did, the aircraft gave me full rudder and aileron deflection which really started the spin. Also note that the rotation is way too anemic for a proper pirouette, you need to actually enter a "spin" to get close in DCS. i.e I only ever got to a sustained 37 deg AoA, yet to properly enter the pirouette maneuver you should be at 45 deg AoA, not possible in DCS.