HUD Zoom?

[1MajorKoenig]

Hi, 

I am having trouble with the zoom function. I use Track IR to control the view but when I lean forward, the HUD stays the same size (and looks tiny compared to the glass).

 

Now I am aware we can configure zoom an a Hotas axis but that isn’t really what I am looking for.

 

Shouldn’t the HUD appear larger if you lean forward? 
 

Thanks for the support!

 

Module is FC3/MiG-29S (but it behaves similar on other modules)

[AKarhu]

Nope, that works exactly as in real life. The dimensions of the picture are defined angularly, not over the plane of the collimator glass. If you think about it, the HUD would be rather useless if it was not collimated into optical infinity or thereabouts.

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb AKarhu:

Nope, that works exactly as in real life. The dimensions of the picture are defined angularly, not over the plane of the collimator glass. If you think about it, the HUD would be rather useless if it was not collimated into optical infinity or thereabouts.

Hmm.. sorry but I am afraid I cannot follow. If I move closer to HUD information stays for your impression the same size? If that is he case you would certainly need to scale that size to make it fit your view or not? Is there a HUD-size button?

[AKarhu]

55 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Hmm.. sorry but I am afraid I cannot follow. If I move closer to HUD information stays for your impression the same size? 

Yes, precisely.

55 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

If that is he case you would certainly need to scale that size to make it fit your view or not? Is there a HUD-size button?

No, there is no such thing. Think it like that HUD imagery is overlaid with the external view, 'floating' basically infinitely far way. Just like the reticle in a reflector sight does. This way the angles displayed are correct, targeting information overlays the actual target and so on. Note that the HUD camera that captures the HUD video on many military aircraft for mission review is basically centimeters away from the assembly and it still captures the correct imagery, but the HUD frames are not visible in its view.

There is something called 'eye box' that your head should remain within to view the HUD correctly. If you move your head sideways out of it, you'd clip the image from the side. If you could back your head into the seat's headrest, you'd clip the image all around, as the image projected retains its angular size while the combiner assembly, quite obviously, would not, due to shift in perspective. If you are properly seated in the cockpit, your head naturally sits in more or less correct position to view through the HUD.

 

Edit: see here.

Edited December 30, 2021 by AKarhu

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb AKarhu:

No, there is no such thing. Think it like that HUD imagery is overlaid with the external view, 'floating' basically infinitely far way.

Yes sure but what do you doing it is too small to read? Basically the HUD only covers half of the glass in the current setting 

 

Also if you use the zoom axis the HUD appears larger on screen?

[AKarhu]

Yes, you'd need to use the zoom function to alter the size of the symbology (and everything else).

Remember, like in physical world, zoom changes the apparent size of the objects regardless of their distance (both the HUD combiner assembly, being maybe some 30 cm away, and its symbology, being effectively infinitely far away, are magnified in same proportion). Moving back and forth, on the other hand, changes perspective, which has no effect on the apparent size of the objects far away.

If the symbology is not covering the appropriate field-of-view through the HUD, you are viewing it unnecessarily close. You can see the same in the video I linked: sometimes the camera is brought right next to the combiner glass, so that its frames are mostly outside the field of view of the camera, but the symbology remains the same apparent size it would if viewed from the seated eyepoint.

Edited December 30, 2021 by AKarhu

[1MajorKoenig]

vor einer Stunde schrieb AKarhu:

Yes, you'd need to use the zoom function to alter the size of the symbology (and everything else).

Remember, like in physical world, zoom changes the apparent size of the objects regardless of their distance (both the HUD combiner assembly, being maybe some 30 cm away, and its symbology, being effectively infinitely far away, are magnified in same proportion). Moving back and forth, on the other hand, changes perspective, which has no effect on the apparent size of the objects far away.

If the symbology is not covering the appropriate field-of-view through the HUD, you are viewing it unnecessarily close. You can see the same in the video I linked: sometimes the camera is brought right next to the combiner glass, so that its frames are mostly outside the field of view of the camera, but the symbology remains the same apparent size it would if viewed from the seated eyepoint.

 

Ok thanks for the explanation. 
 

I was hoping for a setting which would fit the HUD size to your seating position but than I need to see if the zoom function covers what I need.

 

Thanks anyway 

[draconus]

On 12/30/2021 at 3:15 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

I was hoping for a setting which would fit the HUD size to your seating position but than I need to see if the zoom function covers what I need.

Unless there is some bug in a module the default head position is set correctly and the view on the HUD should be fine. Did you mess with snap views or default view positions? Show us the screenshot so we can tell if the view is fine in your case.

[1MajorKoenig]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb draconus:

Unless there is some bug in a module the default head position is set correctly and the view on the HUD should be fine. Did you mess with snap views or default view positions? Show us the screenshot so we can tell if the view is fine in your case.

Thanks - the HUD isn’t out of position it is just too small. I am currently experimenting with different zoom levels but I am not really happy with it so far. Hope to find a good setting for the zoom and still have a good overview. Ideally I would just make the HUD a bit larger and keep the rest of the zoom a bit lower to keep a better field of view 

[draconus]

Again, screenshot, please. It is unrealistic to make only parts of the cockpit bigger or smaller. However the HUD image may seem like that if your position is wrong.

Edited January 2, 2022 by draconus

[1MajorKoenig]

Am 2.1.2022 um 15:17 schrieb draconus:

Again, screenshot, please. It is unrealistic to make only parts of the cockpit bigger or smaller. However the HUD image may seem like that if your position is wrong.

 

Here is what it looks like:

[Hiob]

Looks perfectly normal. And there is no way to change the size of the hud projection without touching anything else.

However - you have a very wide field of view (probably default which is 105 I think). Which is a) unrealistic (if that interests you) and b) works against you with your problem.

Try zooming in to a fov of 75-80. Yes - you will see less of the cockpit and the surroundings at once, that is what trackir is for - move your head.

[Hiob]

p.s. better read of the instruments is a free benefit, too....

[draconus]

...another benefit is better visibility of far units.

Before I went VR I was even more radical and used 'real fov' with my custom TrackIR and 27" a bit closer than usual which made it around 63 DCS FOV and used 5DOF (no Z depth).

Beside changing fov for good, Koenig, you can make zoom dynamic like on Z axis for TrackIR or just with some other button/axis. Try it.

[1MajorKoenig]

Thanks all for the help - I will work a bit on the zoom which I currently have on one of the hotas wheels. 
 

What I find counterintuitive though is that moving your head forward with the Track IR seems like the same as zoom except from the symbology on the HUD (which is only affected by the zoom indeed).

 

Btw. as you are mentioning specific FoV angles - is there an easy way to see which angle you currently have?

 

EDIT: oh and putting zoom on Track IR axis may be interesting as well draconus… maybe I try that out as well - thank you for the idea 

Edited January 5, 2022 by 1MajorKoenig

[draconus]

7 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

What I find counterintuitive though is that moving your head forward with the Track IR seems like the same as zoom except from the symbology on the HUD (which is only affected by the zoom indeed).

 

Btw. as you are mentioning specific FoV angles - is there an easy way to see which angle you currently have?

Press Rctrl+pause twice and look for FOV value.

The HUD behavior is realistic as explained before and shown on video. Imagine like it was painted on the horizon or the sky. You won't see it closer just by moving your head a bit, will you? The frame however is very close so you see a lot more through it when you move your head closer.

Have a read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display in the Design section - collimation.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Thanks all for the help - I will work a bit on the zoom which I currently have on one of the hotas wheels. 
 

What I find counterintuitive though is that moving your head forward with the Track IR seems like the same as zoom except from the symbology on the HUD (which is only affected by the zoom indeed).

 

Btw. as you are mentioning specific FoV angles - is there an easy way to see which angle you currently have?

 

EDIT: oh and putting zoom on Track IR axis may be interesting as well draconus… maybe I try that out as well - thank you for the idea 

 

The old marketing term they used with HUD's is that they were "holographic".  They weren't really holograms, but the idea is that the HUD image is projected in a way that it appears a long distance away.  That's useful because if you move your head in any direction, the gunsight still appears over the same spot in the sky (or, more optimistically, over your target).  That also means (by definition) the HUD image appears the same size no matter how close to the HUD glass your eyes are.  To do so takes some optical wizardry with special lenses and reflectors.  An added advantage is that the HUD image is focused off in the distance, so you can keep the outside world and the HUD image focused in your eyesight at the same time (although not really an issue in DCS).  There are small arms gunsights that actually do have a holographic reticle for those reasons, although it's an actual hologram.

The upshot is that the HUD display appears to be fixed over the distant scenery.  To simulate this, DCS simply makes the HUD part of the scenery (although only visible when seen through the HUD display).

Edited January 5, 2022 by jaylw314

[AKarhu]

Acknowledging the risk of adding confusion, a perfect setup of one's view is indeed somewhat of a compromise on a PC when using a conventional display. With usual viewing distances and display sizes, the field of view tends towards 'unrealistically' wide with most of us, me included.

Geometrically, my display's size and my viewing distance would not result in me quite seeing the full width of the whole upper front panel in the F/A-18 cockpit, if I adjusted my field-of-view to a realistic setting. This 'realistic setting' would result in a field of view that would appear as if viewing through a window, or borders of one, that are of the size of one's monitor display, and at the same viewing distance.

Obviously, anyone who's spent any time in some of these cockpits, or equivalent ones, know that the displays (HUDs included) are fairly large and rather close to one's face. But as we want to avoid the tunnel vision necessarily resulting from the angularly realistic field of view, we tend to prefer wider view, in turn resulting in excessively small instrumentation and symbology.

Indeed, I recall many who have never sat in the real cockpits before, seeing them first time either in reality, or in properly set-up virtual reality, exclaim how surprisingly small the pits are, and how the instruments are right at their faces. That's kind of the result of getting used to seeing them through as if a wide angle lense - almost a fisheye in some cases.

[Hiob]

7 hours ago, AKarhu said:

Acknowledging the risk of adding confusion, a perfect setup of one's view is indeed somewhat of a compromise on a PC when using a conventional display. With usual viewing distances and display sizes, the field of view tends towards 'unrealistically' wide with most of us, me included.

Geometrically, my display's size and my viewing distance would not result in me quite seeing the full width of the whole upper front panel in the F/A-18 cockpit, if I adjusted my field-of-view to a realistic setting. This 'realistic setting' would result in a field of view that would appear as if viewing through a window, or borders of one, that are of the size of one's monitor display, and at the same viewing distance.

Obviously, anyone who's spent any time in some of these cockpits, or equivalent ones, know that the displays (HUDs included) are fairly large and rather close to one's face. But as we want to avoid the tunnel vision necessarily resulting from the angularly realistic field of view, we tend to prefer wider view, in turn resulting in excessively small instrumentation and symbology.

Indeed, I recall many who have never sat in the real cockpits before, seeing them first time either in reality, or in properly set-up virtual reality, exclaim how surprisingly small the pits are, and how the instruments are right at their faces. That's kind of the result of getting used to seeing them through as if a wide angle lense - almost a fisheye in some cases.

Pretty much on point.

My solution to the problem, found me the biggest possible monitor and planted it as close as possible.

[AKarhu]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

Pretty much on point.

My solution to the problem, found me the biggest possible monitor and planted it as close as possible.

Maybe from six to ten years from now, we are all accustomed into de facto virtual reality. And all this nonsense is common sense then.

I'm still running the DCS on an i5 2500K & GTX 1070, so I need to resort into reality in what comes into context when having difficulties using those ancient flat displays!

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, AKarhu said:

Maybe from six to ten years from now, we are all accustomed into de facto virtual reality. And all this nonsense is common sense then.

I'm still running the DCS on an i5 2500K & GTX 1070, so I need to resort into reality in what comes into context when having difficulties using those ancient flat displays!

Just put the monitor REALLY close to your face

In fairness, I did that with a 50" 4K SmartTV, tried setting up head tracking, and immediately became violently ill, despite the fact that I can handle VR perfectly fine.  Go figure...

[1MajorKoenig]

Thanks all for the good explanations and advice!

I am now testing with different zoom/FoV and I think I will find a good compromise. 
 

Finally I understand why some people use multiple monitors…