Community A-4E-C v2.2 (October 2023)

[Gianky]

2 hours ago, photowriters said:

Paveway didn't exist in the durinf the Vietnam War.

I'm sorry, did you mean US Navy didn't have them? As far as I know, USAF used them during the war, although experimentally.

[RealA4EPilot]

3 hours ago, Armageddon666 said:

Thanks for the answer !

So you mean the way the Shrike is currently implemented in the mod, with a lock-on tone, is not realistic ? Interesting.

Searching the web I found this and this which seam to describe the launch sequence of the Shrike. Unfortunately, the first image is out of focus and the text is unreadable. On the second image, top right, there is a sentence regarding "audio tone", which may indicate the pilot could hear when the seeker was detecting a signal, prior to launch. But the text is incomplete, so I'm not sure.

I also noted here that it is said the guidance system was limited to certain radar sources. That makes sense of course.

It would be so much easier if I had a declassified copy of the A-4E/F tactical manual. It's just been too many years since I flew an A-4E carrying a live Shrike missile. Before I delve into Shrike, you need to understand the value of the human ear.

Every radar makes a unique audio sound that can be heard if the radar transmissions are rectified and the resulting audio is routed to the pilot's headset. The SA-2's track while scan radar, with the NATO designation Fansong, had a chatter that alternately peaked and faded in volume. The Soviet copy of our SCR-584 conical scanning anti-aircraft radar was used to aim the 85mm and 100m anti-aircraft guns in North Vietnam. It had a two-tone warble that switched to a steady warble when it was locked on. The height finding radars had the lower pitch of a long range radar that came and went as the antenna swept up and down. Etc., etc., etc.

Your "This" and "This" are photos of a display about the AN/AGM-45 in the China Lake Museum here in Ridgecrest, CA 93555. The Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake and the city of Ridgecrest share an east/west boundary. The Museum is open to the public so if you ever drive up CA Hwy 14 or US395 drop in. https://chinalakemuseum.org/

The best description of the Shrike I've found is in the video below. It's not the best quality but it is chocked full of interesting and useful information. Pay particular attention to the comments that when fired shrike is a ballistic missile. Shrike is a ballistic missile with terminal guidance.

Shrike was designed as a weapon to defeat an enemy's defensive anti-air weapons. Originally, the use of Shrike was envisioned to be used before a strike group arrived over the target. The tactic was to loft Shrike missiles into a position above the threat radar, i.e., "in to a basket from which it could guide to the threat radar and destroy it. An alternate tactic was developed during the Vietnam war. The "toss it in a basket" delivery tactic was defeated by the North Vietnamese by exercising tight emission control. they would not use their radars until the attacking strike group was inside the kill radius of the SA-2 missile. The tactic developed was a down the throat delivery. The Iron Hand aircraft would center the needles in a 30 to 45 degree dive, pull the nose up about 10 degrees and fire the missile.

It's been a long, long time, but what I remember is that rectified radar audio was available from two sources, the AN/ALQ-51 and the Shrike seeker. To the best of my memory, all you had to do to get audio from the Shrike was to set the station selector switch to ARM. ALQ audio was supplied continuously, but there was a volume control to allow you to turn it down. I believe setting the Shrike station selector switch to ARM gave full power to the missile so the needles on the ADI were functional.

Good Hunting!

Edited February 17, 2022 by photowriters
spelling and grammar

[RealA4EPilot]

Where in the hell do I find messages that were sent to me. I need to respond to one, but I can't find the damn thing!!!

[Captain Orso]

51 minutes ago, photowriters said:

Where in the hell do I find messages that were sent to me. I need to respond to one, but I can't find the damn thing!!!

Click the envelope at the top of the screen.

[Armageddon666]

8 hours ago, photowriters said:

It would be so much easier if I had a declassified copy of the A-4E/F tactical manual. It's just been too many years since I flew an A-4E carrying a live Shrike missile. Before I delve into Shrike, you need to understand the value of the human ear.

Every radar makes a unique audio sound that can be heard if the radar transmissions are rectified and the resulting audio is routed to the pilot's headset. The SA-2's track while scan radar, with the NATO designation Fansong, had a chatter that alternately peaked and faded in volume. The Soviet copy of our SCR-584 conical scanning anti-aircraft radar was used to aim the 85mm and 100m anti-aircraft guns in North Vietnam. It had a two-tone warble that switched to a steady warble when it was locked on. The height finding radars had the lower pitch of a long range radar that came and went as the antenna swept up and down. Etc., etc., etc.

Your "This" and "This" are photos of a display about the AN/AGM-45 in the China Lake Museum here in Ridgecrest, CA 93555. The Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake and the city of Ridgecrest share an east/west boundary. The Museum is open to the public so if you ever drive up CA Hwy 14 or US395 drop in. https://chinalakemuseum.org/

The best description of the Shrike I've found is in the video below. It's not the best quality but it is chocked full of interesting and useful information. Pay particular attention to the comments that when fired shrike is a ballistic missile. Shrike is a ballistic missile with terminal guidance.

Shrike was designed as a weapon to defeat an enemy's defensive anti-air weapons. Originally, the use of Shrike was envisioned to be used before a strike group arrived over the target. The tactic was to loft Shrike missiles into a position above the threat radar, i.e., "in to a basket from which it could guide to the threat radar and destroy it. An alternate tactic was developed during the Vietnam war. The "toss it in a basket" delivery tactic was defeated by the North Vietnamese by exercising tight emission control. they would not use their radars until the attacking strike group was inside the kill radius of the SA-2 missile. The tactic developed was a down the throat delivery. The Iron Hand aircraft would center the needles in a 30 to 45 degree dive, pull the nose up about 10 degrees and fire the missile.

It's been a long, long time, but what I remember is that rectified radar audio was available from two sources, the AN/ALQ-51 and the Shrike seeker. To the best of my memory, all you had to do to get audio from the Shrike was to set the station selector switch to ARM. ALQ audio was supplied continuously, but there was a volume control to allow you to turn it down. I believe setting the Shrike station selector switch to ARM gave full power to the missile so the needles on the ADI were functional.

Good Hunting!

 

Thanks again.

I also found that video yesterday evening just after my post here. Great source of information on the subject with interesting historical value. There is a time in that video where a veteran tries to explain the different tones he had in the headset when listening to radar sources.

I also liked the "shotgun" trick they explain, faking the launch of a Shrike to force the enemy radar to shut down, without effectively firing a Shrike... Cat and mice game.

Regarding the China Lake museum, seems interesting, unfortunately I'm living in Europe, so that's not the place next door to me.

Anyway, I find it amazing DCS modules and their great community help getting information, historical and technical facts about those times and planes.

What a challenge to recreate accurate models in a simulation! 

[RealA4EPilot]

5 hours ago, Armageddon666 said:

Thanks again.

I also found that video yesterday evening just after my post here. Great source of information on the subject with interesting historical value. There is a time in that video where a veteran tries to explain the different tones he had in the headset when listening to radar sources.

I also liked the "shotgun" trick they explain, faking the launch of a Shrike to force the enemy radar to shut down, without effectively firing a Shrike... Cat and mice game.

<deleted>

I read a write up on firing a Zuni rather than a Shrike that said the Fansong radar operators could tell the difference between Zuni or a Shrike because of the difference in the speed of the two, and as the war progressed they would not shutdown for a Zuni firing. FWIW, there were indications that they had integrated visual tracking devices to help defeat defeat deceptive ECM equipment like the ALQ-51.

[rfxcasey]

Can't re-arm re-fuel no matter what I do, what is the problem?

[Calabrone]

47 minutes ago, rfxcasey said:

Can't re-arm re-fuel no matter what I do, what is the problem?

If I remember correctly, you must have the cockpit open to be able to communicate with the ground crew and if you have the engine running you must bring it to idle and you should be able to refuel and rearm, otherwise if it does not allow you to refuel you must turn off the engine and at this point you will be allowed to refuel.

[Gianky]

10 minutes ago, Calabrone said:

If I remember correctly, you must have the cockpit open to be able to communicate with the ground crew and if you have the engine running you must bring it to idle and you should be able to refuel and rearm, otherwise if it does not allow you to refuel you must turn off the engine and at this point you will be allowed to refuel.

You don't have to turn the engine off for refueling and rearming, only for repairs.

[rfxcasey]

34 minutes ago, Calabrone said:

If I remember correctly, you must have the cockpit open to be able to communicate with the ground crew and if you have the engine running you must bring it to idle and you should be able to refuel and rearm, otherwise if it does not allow you to refuel you must turn off the engine and at this point you will be allowed to refuel.

In all other planes you don't have to have the canopy open and only have to have the engine off to repair. If you need to have the canopy open to talk to the ground crew in the A-4e that's a special case as far as I know, none of the other planes I own require that.

I can't get the any of the radio comms to work in the A-4E after installed to latest version 2.0, I don't know what the problem is. I've tired in the quick missions as well as adding the plane to missions I've made myself and normally fly. What the heck is going on is the plane just bugged or what. My pilot will make the radio call but never any response from ground crew or ATC. I can't salute and launch off the carrier but that's it. Even when the plane is completely shut down it's not working. Worked fine in the old version. I complete uninstalled and reinstalled it but it's still not working.

Edited February 18, 2022 by rfxcasey

[Gianky]

4 minutes ago, rfxcasey said:

In all other planes you don't have to have the canopy open and only have to have the engine off to repair. If you need to have the canopy open to talk to the ground crew in the A-4e that's a special case as far as I know, none of the other planes I own require that.

Yeah, it's a special case, apparently it didn't have an intercomm to communicate with the ground crew.

[rfxcasey]

10 minutes ago, Gianky said:

Yeah, it's a special case, apparently it didn't have an intercomm to communicate with the ground crew.

Well I'll be dipped, it'd be nice if that was made a bit more apparent. It works, but it still sounds like they are talking on comms so, kind of a miss if realism was what they were going for.

Edited February 18, 2022 by rfxcasey

[Gianky]

It's at page 1.2 of the manual, right side, squared below the radio description.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Gianky

[rfxcasey]

Why do I need the manual when I've got you?

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by rfxcasey

[Gianky]

[RealA4EPilot]

1 hour ago, rfxcasey said:

Why do I need the manual when I've got you?

Well . . . I'm 80 and the proability that the manual will out live me is 1.0. Doc says i'll live to 90, but statistics say "Not so fast Charlie!"

[Calabrone]

9 hours ago, Gianky said:

You don't have to turn the engine off for refueling and rearming, only for repairs.

You're right but I couldn't remember it anymore.

[Calabrone]

6 hours ago, photowriters said:

Well . . . I'm 80 and the proability that the manual will out live me is 1.0. Doc says i'll live to 90, but statistics say "Not so fast Charlie!"

Yes, photowriters, I am 69 and liver transplanted and diabetic and even for me the stats don't give me more than ten years or less, but I don't give a damn and think about enjoying life day by day. Someone said " ... tomorrow is another day! "

[davido53]

My napalm doesn't explode, I've got master arm on, nose and tail armed...they drop but don't explode

[RealA4EPilot]

Reading through the second forum thread I came across the two items below. The first is to correct a word choice. The second, while considerably more esoteric. is critical to survival as a tactical combat pilot.

Chocks NOT Chokes

The devices that one puts in front and behind aircraft wheels to keep an aircraft from rolling away are chocks, not chokes.

Real Time Ballistics & Why Level Bombing?

I suspect that no one on this forum has ever heard of real time ballistics, much less knowing what it is or why it is important. Real time ballistics can be defined as the study of, science of, or the solution to aiming a gun so the projectile will hit a moving target like an A-4E trucking along at 7,000 feet AGL and 350KIAS.

What’s important to know as a pilot is the flight time of the projectile to various altitudes. As an attack pilot, the last thing you want to do when flying over enemy territory is to fly in a manner that makes it easier for the anti-aircraft gunners to shoot you down. At its most rudimentary level, the importance of real time ballistics is the immutable truth that the closer you are to the gun the shorter the time of flight is from the muzzle to the aircraft, a situation that reduces to second but equally important immutable truth. The closer you are to the muzzle of the anti-aircraft cannon, the more likely it is that you will be shot down.

Obviously, you want to stay as far away from the muzzle as you can. Equally obvious is that you want to fly in a manner that will complicate the problem of where to aim the guns. The tactic to achieve this is to not fly straight and level, i.e., jink the aircraft. If the time of flight of a projectile is 7.5 seconds then you need to turn and change altitude every 4 to 5 seconds.

When you choose a delivery profile for delivering a stick of bombs you must be mindful of the impact of real time ballistics as well as the inherent accuracy or inaccuracy of the various delivery profiles.

The converse of the enemy gunner’s gun aiming problem is your selection of a delivery profile and a release altitude. In its simplest terms the shorter the slant range to the target when you punch the bomb pickle the better the chances are that you will hit the target. The quasi-standard strike delivery profile for a major strike or a road RECCE in Vietnam was a 45-degree dive releasing your bomb(s) at 5000AGL [above ground level] and 450KTAS. A 30-degree dive releasing at 3000 feet would give you a better chance of hitting the target, but your chances of being shot down would be exponentially higher because you were closer to the ground and closer to the muzzle, real time ballistics at work.

Level bombing using a depressible gunsight to drop Mk 80 series bombs is not a good tactic because that delivery technique is not conducive to either tight CEPs or accuracy. Why? Small pitch errors or deviations result in large impact errors. When you choose a particular delivery tactic or profile there are a host of factors to consider. For example: 

1. ·        What is the enemy’s anti-air order of battle, i.e., anti-aircraft guns, surface to air missiles, fighter/interceptor aircraft, electronic warfare assets, etc., i.e., what’s the biggest threat to you and your aircraft enroute to the target, in the target area, and egressing from the target?
2.       What level of damage is required for the target the be considered as destroyed or damaged to the point that additional strikes are not required?
3. ·       What do the tactical manuals and weaponeering pubs recommend as the preferred delivery profile?
4. ·       Etc., etc., etc.

Edited February 19, 2022 by photowriters
spelling and grammar

[Calabrone]

Dear Photowiriter I read very carefully what you write, because there is only to learn from you. I enclose an excerpt of a story of a mission of VA-212 of Bonnie Dick that confirms very well what you wrote. Until your next lesson.

" Our tactics at this point were to
Enter the target area at approximately 3,500 ft. AGL,
and 450 knots so that the C models with J-65 engines
could keep up, climb to about 7,000, make a
30-degree bomb run with a release at 4,000 ft,
and exit at 3,000. These tactics were the result
of a poor assessment of enemy weapons capabilities.
enemy capabilities. The intensity of
ground fire below 3,000 was real. "

Virtual Pilots of DCS A4-E if you are interested in knowing the history of this mission I leave below the link.

https://www.flightjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Scooter-Memories-FJ-413.pdf

 

[RealA4EPilot]

55 minutes ago, Calabrone said:

Dear Photowiriter I read very carefully what you write, because there is only to learn from you. I enclose an excerpt of a story of a mission of VA-212 of Bonnie Dick that confirms very well what you wrote. Until your next lesson.

" Our tactics at this point were to
Enter the target area at approximately 3,500 ft. AGL,
and 450 knots so that the C models with J-65 engines
could keep up, climb to about 7,000, make a
30-degree bomb run with a release at 4,000 ft,
and exit at 3,000. These tactics were the result
of a poor assessment of enemy weapons capabilities.
enemy capabilities. The intensity of
ground fire below 3,000 was real. "

Virtual Pilots of DCS A4-E if you are interested in knowing the history of this mission I leave below the link.

https://www.flightjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Scooter-Memories-FJ-413.pdf

 

If it's VA-212 on the USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31) the book must have been Stephen R. Gray's documentary book Rampant Raider which is the story of his path to becoming a naval aviator and his experiences as squadron pilot with the Rampant Raiders of VA-212. I bought the book, but I'll never finish it it because it did not resonate with me. The parts I read matched my own experiences, but the prose was too flat. It lacked both the sparkle of good story telling and the drive that sweep the reader toward a destination.

U.S. Navy carrier based aviation was at the same time well and poorly prepared for extended combat operations when the Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred on 02 AUG 1964. The attack pilots were highly proficient at day and night carrier operations and delivery of both conventional and special weapons. However, they were ill prepared to fight and survive in the skies of North Vietnam. Their tactics for ingress, egress, and delivery kept them in the center of the most dangerous spot in the North Vietnamese air defenses. The initial loss rates were staggering. As real time ballistics were factored into mission planning and execution, aircraft began to fly at higher altitudes, pilots began to drop bombs at higher altitudes, and the loss rate decreased. 

When I joined my first squadron. we flew 7,000 ft to 11,000 ft ASL, dropped our bombs in a 60° dive releasing the bombs at 7,000 ft. The second cruise we flew between 7,000 ft and 9,000 ft and released our bombs at 5,000 ft. in a 45° dive.

New Subject

Specifics of the case 1, day VFR pattern around the ship has been a topic of intense scrutiny and discussion on every iteration of the A-4E DCS forum. Perhaps it is time to discuss some of the finer points of carrier operations flying an A-4E especially approaches and landings.

[Calabrone]

Dear Photowriters, it's about that book that I found a small excerpt of on the web. The new subject that you have, may I call you by your name, put in the works I hope you get it out soon.

[DN308]

Is there a chance to find some liveries?

[Calabrone]

30 minutes ago, DN308 said:

Is there a chance to find some liveries?

Sure ! But you have to go into User Files and scroll down the drop down menu of "Type" and click on Livery. There you will find various liveries for the A4-E, but you have to search for them because there is no Scooter in the Unit menu.