not planned VR and trackIR icons next to player-names in MP score chart

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, D4n said:

No it's not! It's an awfully cheaty cheeky unrealistic thing!

 

Turning your head is unrealistic?

This guy is cheating!

 

[cfrag]

14 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'd expect VR to be superior due to the fact you can see slight changes in the bandit's orientation much better

In theory perhaps. But today's VR goggles don't have the required resolution for that. Most have a horizontal resolution of around 2100 pixels, which is well below what today's flat screens can do.  Plus, you have to focus (i.e. move your entire head to look directly at the bogey, it has to be dead center) to be able to clearly see that (HMDs are notoriously bad in peripheral vision due to the strong distortion of the lenses), while on flat screens you can swivel you eyeballs and see the plane clearly. VR is enormously helpful for spatial orientation, and incredibly increases fun and the feeling of 'being there'. Almost paradoxically, through, your view of the outside world isn't as clear in VR as it is on flat screens. 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by cfrag

[Dragon1-1]

7 minutes ago, cfrag said:

In theory perhaps. But today's VR goggles don't have the required resolution for that. Most have a horizontal resolution of around 2100 pixels, which is well below what today's flat screens can do. 

Resolution doesn't matter, the amount of your FOV taken up by it does. In VR, this resolution is stretched across your entire FOV, unlike basically every screen you can get. You're not trying to read the numbers off his tail, you're trying to determine where exactly the nose in pointing. For that, the bigger the silhouette, even if it's a little pixellated, the better. The same aircraft on a screen appears smaller compared to VR at a given distance. This is further improved by the fact VR gives you real depth perception, allowing your to gauge range much better.

Read up on smart scaling and the problem it was designed to solve. VR basically solves it by giving you a view that's 1:1 with what you'd actually see, but at a much lower resolution. You're less able to read small text in VR, but vastly better at recognizing shapes and assessing their orientation in space. This is especially evident with things like AAR, but also useful in a dogfight, where you need to know whether the bandit is going lag, pure or lead on you.

[SharpeXB]

Head tracking or VR is actually vital to being able to play this game well or at all. Besides just being able to turn your head, they give you 6DOF meaning you can peek around canopy frames and such. Without that ability the canopy becomes very obstructive. 
Then realize a lot of these aircraft have HMD sights that literally need to be aimed by moving your head, those seem like they’d be unusable with a snap-viewing hat switch. Mouse-look would work better but still seems to be frustration inducing and awkward. The fact that there are free or low-cost head tracking options makes me wonder why this is a topic…

Edited August 28, 2022 by SharpeXB

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Read up on smart scaling and the problem it was designed to solve

Thank you for the hint - I would very much like to do that. Do you have a link, as this is a subject that is of great interest to me. 

Just now, SharpeXB said:

The fact that there are free head tracking options makes me wonder why this is a topic

Indeed. I don't see why people would set up a good gaming rig, purchase cool models, add expensive controllers, and then skimp on on a $30 device.    

[Dragon1-1]

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA414893.pdf
This is a paper outlining the idea behind Smart Scaling. It's not specific to any sim so I can post it. 

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The fact that there are free or low-cost head tracking options makes me wonder why this is a topic…

It isn't, the topic is TrackIR vs. VR. I think we can all agree you need either of those to do ACM. Without it, you can do BVR to some extent and you can do air to ground to some extent, since both involve staring at displays a lot, but the moment you try to do some visual stuff or jump into an older aircraft, you're massively hobbled. I think one of the major reason Ka-50 and A-10 came out first is that they're fairly OK without any sort of headtracking, given what they do and how they're set up, although in a Ka-50 you lose the very nice helmet sight that way.

[SharpeXB]

18 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

the topic is TrackIR vs. VR.

Near as I can tell the topic is hat switch vs any sort of ergonomic view system device. 

32 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Indeed. I don't see why people would set up a good gaming rig, purchase cool models, add expensive controllers, and then skimp on on a $30 device.

You’re applying rational thinking to an irrational situation

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

This is a paper outlining the idea behind Smart Scaling

Thank you so much. That helped me to understand the point that the magnification factor from stretching a flat screen's image (the two HMD's screens) to fill your entire FOV provides a magnification that could allow the viewer to better discern features of a plane that would be too small otherwise (i.e. a flat screen). Very interesting read (that thesis unfortunately predates VR, it would have been great to see how VR validates/influences it with the added spatial resolution; the frosted glass approach unfortunately is 2D only). Thanks again for the link!  

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It isn't, the topic is TrackIR vs. VR

From another read of the OP, they lump TIR and VR users in one category, and everyone else in another. To me it came across as someone looking for a convenient excuse after being killed by a VR/TIR user: "yeah, sure, but you only killed me because of TIR/VR". 

Adding in the somewhat silly proposition that it would help to establish if "VR pilots are better pilots than TrackIR" sounds to me that it was merely added to make the original intent a little less obvious. I said "Silly", since the mettle of a pilot is not established by their gaming hardware, those are merely multiplicators. To find out what pilot is better, they first have to go head to head 'naked' to establish rank. Then we can see if the other factors (not just TIR, VR: also controllers, big screens/full cockpits with rear-projection, aural devices, alcohol levels, background noise level, stress factor) contribute. Simply showing what eye device a player is using seems unhelpful for this at best- unless you were a sore loser with hopes of finding an easy ego-crutch. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by cfrag

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

To find out what pilot is better, they first have to go head to head 'naked' to establish rank.

If you only have two pilots, yes. If you do this over a multiplayer server, you can get a large enough sample that individual skill differences cancel out, assuming the average skill in both groups is the same. This doesn't have to be true, particularly seeing as VR is a major investment compared to a headtracker, so we can expect being willing to spend on the hardware to be a confounding factor, but this doesn't necessarily have to be correlated with skill.

[SharpeXB]

It’s interesting to note that the HUD in the A-10CII wouldn’t be usable without head tracking or VR as it requires you to move your head in order to see all of it. So clearly the use of these are universal enough to warrant this design decision. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s interesting to note that the HUD in the A-10CII wouldn’t be usable without head tracking or VR as it requires you to move your head in order to see all of it. So clearly the use of these are universal enough to warrant this design decision. 

Not really, you can adjust your seat to see all that matters. In fact, if you're seeing the depressible pipper (without having messed with it), your seat is too far down. You don't need to see the uppermost part.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Having played PvP air combat games in the past using only HOTAS buttons for over 15 years, I can safely say they are no disadvantage other than they take away HOTAS hats/buttons. 
 

Track IR type devices can be equal to hat switches if carefully set up. VR has a distinct disadvantage to the other two in that you must turn your head and body. 
 

However, VR is the most fun so thats what I use. 
 

This thread smells of the desperation of someone who cannot face up to the required self-examination in order to become better at BFM

It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools. 

[D4n]

  

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

TrackIR vs. VR. I think we can all agree you need either of those to do ACM.

Afaik this first engagement falls under ACM https://youtu.be/eH-9PiNmLmg and as you can see I performed quite good, even though my right thumb probably nearly fell off after that engagement.

 

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s interesting to note that the HUD in the A-10CII [...] requires you to move your head in order to see all of it.

In DCS, yes, but maybe not IRL, or?

 

19 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Near as I can tell the topic is hat switch vs any sort of ergonomic view system device. 

Rather a means for us to be able to collect statistics on which configuration players use in multiplayer.

[MAXsenna]

53 minutes ago, D4n said:

Rather a means for us to be able to collect statistics on which configuration players use in multiplayer.

There is no "us". You're getting heavily ratioed here, can't you see? 

[SkateZilla]

The only ones that need to know what hardware players are using is ED/Devs, and that info is collected at their request.

Players do not need to be collecting information on other players hardware.

There does not need to be a VR/TiR Label next to anyone's name, nor a Intel/AMD/nVidia Label, nor a 1 Screen/3 Screen label, nor a KB/HOTAS label etc.
You do not need a icon to see and use as an excuse when you want (ie, I Lost because you are on VR), etc

No Other AAA Titles nor MP Services do this for good reason, 
If you want to know hardware and a user is willing to share it with you, just ask them.

Out side of that, the labels are not going to happen, and there's really no point in continuing the discussion.

, 

Edited August 29, 2022 by SkateZilla

[MAXsenna]

13 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Players do not need to be collecting information on other players hardware.

Yup. It could be considered as a breach of privacy even. But some people refuse to understand that.  

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, D4n said:

In DCS, yes, but maybe not IRL, or?

I understand this is how it is IRL. The old A-10 cockpit viewpoint was obviously made so you could clearly see the HUD and MFCDs on your screen but it was odd when using head tracking, it was like you were sitting up on the front of your seat. 

1 hour ago, D4n said:

Rather a means for us to be able to collect statistics on which configuration players use in multiplayer.

Why? so you can discover you’re the only one that uses a hat switch?

[D4n]

25 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

If you want to know hardware and a user is willing to share it with you, just ask them.

1. Way too high risk of dishonest answer, so that's a big no, and 2. even then, you'd have to ask every single player in the PvP server. SkateZilla, you forgot one important point. You didn't reply what your guess (or knowledge) is on how many in PvP use TiR/VR, whether you agree with the rumored 90% or not...

Without such reply you shouldn't claim whether there is any point in continuing the discussion or not.

10 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

It could be considered as a breach of privacy even.

What, how even, if EVERY SINGLE PvP player can super easily change their nicknames 24/7??

Edited August 29, 2022 by D4n

[D4n]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Why? so you can discover you’re the only one that uses a hat switch?

No, rather to see how important it is for me to start flying every single PvP sortie in VR, to have a realistic combat experience, instead of like being in VR only 1 out of 100 sorties or so. (but on one specific server it could also increase my risk of getting kicked from the server while flying in VR, which must be one of the most nauseous experiences a DCS player can overcome. Hope I don't throw up on my keyboard in such case.)

Edited August 29, 2022 by D4n

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, D4n said:

how many in PvP use TiR/VR, whether you agree with the rumored 90% or not...

Whether it’s 90% or 99% who knows? I will say your video is the only flight sim footage I’ve ever seen of anyone using a hat switch. It looks painful… 

4 minutes ago, D4n said:

No, rather to see how important it is for me to start flying every single PvP sortie in VR,

So you can’t just decide for yourself if you feel this is an advantage or not? If you tried to eat soup with a fork would you need an online survey to tell you that a spoon is better?

[cfrag]

42 minutes ago, D4n said:

it could also increase my risk of getting kicked from the server while flying in VR, which must be one of the most nauseous experiences a DCS player can overcome

Sorry, it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. Do you even have VR? Which HMD model are you using that it would induce nausea when the server connection drops? Anyone who's flown DCS in VR knows that that couldn't happen. You simply stare at the server connection screen, suspended in mid-air 1m in front of you, right side up. No vertigo possible.

Please. Let it go. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by cfrag

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, D4n said:

What, how even, if EVERY SINGLE PvP player can super easily change their nicknames 24/7??

It's still linked to an ID of some sorts, isn't it? That's why when you get banned from all those servers, you are still banned when you change your nick? If it wasn't like this I guess you wouldn't have started all those other threads. 

And even if you are anonymous, your privacy shouldn't be on display. 

[SkateZilla]

4 hours ago, D4n said:

1. Way too high risk of dishonest answer, so that's a big no, and 2. even then, you'd have to ask every single player in the PvP server. SkateZilla, you forgot one important point. You didn't reply what your guess (or knowledge) is on how many in PvP use TiR/VR, whether you agree with the rumored 90% or not...

Without such reply you shouldn't claim whether there is any point in continuing the discussion or not.

What, how even, if EVERY SINGLE PvP player can super easily change their nicknames 24/7??

 

As for a Guess on the % of Users that use VR and who doesn't, if I did know that information, as a tester or anyone with access to it, usage statistics that arent already public information, is a violation of Privacy and likely the NDA, no one is going to risk any of that to ease your mind as to wether you feel VR is an Advantage.

It doesn't matter to me, as a Player I don't care if you are VR, TiR, 65 Inch 8K QLED.
I dont care if you use a Headset, Face Tracking, IR Tracking, Coolie Hat, Mouse Trackball, NUMPAD View Lock whatever to track targets.
The Option and feature is there for everyone to use, whether a user is using it or not is of no consequence.

Again, VR vs TiR is no different than $200 GFX Card Vs $1500 GFX Card. AMD vs nVidia, Xbox Controller vs HOTAS, 1 Screen vs 3 Screens,
They are all accessories. They all have advantages and disadvantages.
Hardware does not determine a person's skill, nor is it an excuse to use for lack there of.

Gaming and Simulator experience has always been divided into Financial Classes,
Some users spend literally upwards $10,000 on their Rigs, others buy a prebuilt $600 Rig.

Where is this "Us" coming from anyway?

Per your OP, You want to collect statistics to determine if it's a Advantage/Handicap situation depending on hardware,
Now you are stating there's a high risk of dis-honest answers, implying that you would ask someone and they'd give false info to hide an advantage.
This is leading away from general statistic gathering to a MP Cheating Dispute discussion, which isn't allowed on the forums.

But back to you're argument to have the information:
You don't need that information, nor do you have an End User right to it.

Developers/ED May need it for research in which case, they have polls. and they also collect usage data from anyone that opts into it.
If it's needed for a Bug Report, then a user can upload the files required which include everything ED Needs.

Server Admins can screenshot a user's output to see if they are on VR and determine if there is any issues.

But you as a End user do not need any information about another user's system,
if they don't offer that information, you do not have a right to it. nor a right to demand a developer to integrate such feature. End of Story.

NO OTHER AAA TITLE OR SERVICE PUBLICLY ADVERTISES ANOTHER USER'S SYSTEM INFORMATION.

They (ie Steam) Publishes Survey results, but the user has to Opt In to those, and they are not always accurate either,
as not everyone opts in, and I can change my system settings before sending those. They are also global general stats, and not an Individual's detailed information.

Edited August 29, 2022 by SkateZilla

[okopanja]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:19 PM, D4n said:

Not even necessarily the same one imo, it would probably suffice if on average TIR pilots perform better than no TIR-pilots

TIR or VR, the advantage is clear there. Also not mention buying 40in+ monitor and using zoom to spot airplanes and missiles from distance not possible in reality.

It is rather difficult to draw the line, where cheating starts, but I do believe that average player should be aware of the advantage the pay wall offers.

In today's crazy world, sharing the information on hardware can be considered as private information.

However I see no reason why ED would not allow us to see percentage of users using nothing, TIR or VR.

Just like with screenshots (which is way more intrusive), ED can enable the optional feature to show these settings for each individual user. It would be up to admin to decide if the feature gets used.

[MAXsenna]

23 minutes ago, okopanja said:

It would be up to admin to decide if the feature gets used.

The user you mean. The user should have that choice.