w.i.p George should hand off trimmed controls

[McVittees]

The solution I’d like to see is:

• Ghost AI pilot control position indicators displayed
• On player returning to pilot position aircraft retains AI control positions (ie player control inputs ignored)
• player matches AI ghost control positions and presses trim to regain control of aircraft

Similar approach works perfectly in the Huey using its crew autopilot.

[Loophole]

I encounter this handover-trim issue a lot, as I fly as CPG and use George as a glorified autopilot.

I'll have to try the "hit trim without moving the stick" workaround, but the likelihood of my accidentally moving the stick while doing that is high.  Having deadzones wouldn't suit my setup.

However, it is interesting to note that this problem doesn't arise when handing control between a human pilot and a human CPG - in that case the stick trim settings seem to be carried across and it works great! 

I don't find adjusting the cyclic a much of an issue, though a 'ghost' indicator would be nice!

[Loophole]

The "Trim without moving stick" doesn't work, sadly; George sets all trim to zero as he hands over control.  Unless I am very carefully prepared, there is a high probability I'll end up in an uncontrollable state.  Since George has no clue about evading threats you need to really take control quickly when attacked, but mostly that seems to end in a n out-of-control situation

[admiki]

 All my controls stay in place once released. I deal with that by giving him control and taking it back in the same state. If I need him to hold hover, I will get into hover (or close to it), handover, release controls. When I take control back, there is little to no disruption.

[Magic Zach]

Just gonna add a +1 to this.  Maintained trim settings would be excellent for when the pilot takes control from George.  Currently when the player takes control, it flings the aircraft out of control because the trim is zeroized.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Magic Zach

[Loophole]

I just ran a test in the latest Open Beta version 2.8.4.38947.  Although there have been some small changes around the controls indicator, and possibly a minor change to the handover behaviour, the issue in general still remains.

What I observe now - and this might have always been the case, but I hadn't noticed before - is that when you take control back from George the controls remain in the position George had them.  However, as soon as the tiniest input is received from any control it once again dumps all the trim.  Since it is pretty much inevitable that you are going to be applying some tiny degree of stick deflection if you have your hands on the controls, it still ends up dumping all trim as soon as you ask for control back.  Even if you manage not to move anything, you then have to review the control indicator and make a best-guess as to where you are going to have to (hurriedly) position the controls if you want to have any hope of retaining control.

Hopefully this is just still a WIP, and we aren't seeing the final solution yet.

What I hope gets implemented as the final solution - at least in "Instant Trim" trimmer mode - would be that:

- George (effectively) hits their "Force Trim - Up" button prior to handing over control, and
- That "Force Trim" setting is carried over to the CPG, i.e. so it acts as if the CPG had just pressed "Force Trim - Up" with their controls in that exact same position.

Everything can then continue as normal.  The effect should be that:

- If the CPG has the cyclic and rudder close to neutral, the handover will have little to no disruption of the flight.  The collective, however, would need to be adjusted to match - which is where it would help to have a 'ghost' mark persist on the Controls Indicator for a few seconds showing where George had it positioned.

- If the CPG is desperately trying to initiate evasive action as they take control, those inputs will immediately be applied on top of George's trimmed control positions, hopefully resulting in the desired response without having to also fight to find the "trimmed" position.

- Having "Ghost indicators" showing the CPG control positions while George is in control would be an added help; an ideal solution might include these in addition to the above behaviour.

Apologies for the long post - I just want to be sure the developers have a clear understanding of the issue and of what a solution might look like.

[Chic]

Those averse to using dead-zones to avoid any controller input while trimming might consider VoiceAttack.  A single voice command can hand over control of the a/c in the re-trimmed state.  
Just a thought.  
 

[Loophole]

15 hours ago, Chic said:

A single voice command can hand over control of the a/c in the re-trimmed state.

Does that work in the free version of VA?  I'll have to try it. 
If it works I'd love to know how it manages it.  I would have thought that in the end VA has to go through the same cockpit API that we use for keybinds, and for integrations like Helios and physical simpits.  If there is some sequence of API calls that can achieve a trimmed handover from George then somebody please tell me so I can make use of them!

[Loophole]

16 hours ago, Chic said:

A single voice command can hand over control of the a/c in the re-trimmed state. 

Sadly this doesn't seem to work for me.  I set up a VA profile and bound the "C" keypress to a command.  When George hands control back to me they still dump all the trim.  Perhaps there is some other way to set this up, not using the keybind?

Looking closer at the controls indicator in game I can see that the root of the problem is that George - being an AI with unlimited strength and stamina - actually doesn't use trim at all; they just hold the controls in the desired position - exactly the way that a human pilot doesn't.  The trim is actually *not* dumped when George hands control back; it is dumped at the moment you hand control *over* to George.  At the same time George perfectly matches your control positions and effortlessly takes over.  Sadly, when it comes time to hand control back to you, you don't have George's magical ability to perfectly replicate the control positions, and the trim has been zeroed - hence the potential for loss of control.

George just needs to press that "Trim" button before handing back control.

[Chic]

On 5/3/2023 at 3:46 AM, Loophole said:

George just needs to press that "Trim" button before handing back control.

He will, in effect, if you use the VA command shown below.

I remapped REQUEST AIRCRAFT CONTROL UP  to "LAlt+LShft+C"  (can't remember why).

Also mapped FORCE TRIM/HOLD MODE to "T"  (incidentally also mapped to Hat switch).

See my update post later in this thread.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Chic
Floyd

[Floyd1212]

In your example, George is not pressing FTR before handing over controls; rather, your macro is pressing FTR right after receiving controls.  (You could also just press the "T" key on your keyboard and do this without VA, of course.)

The problem is for someone without a dead zone configured for their controls, any bit of drift in the axis will register after you take controls and before you activate FTR.  With my setup, this technique works fine, but I could see how it may not work for others.

For those with a slight drift (or no dead zone), you could probably use something like Joystick Gremlin (or similar) to temporarily disable your inputs until FTR has been pressed.

1. "Disconnect" joystick/pedal axis from DCS
2. Request control
3. pause .5 sec
4. Press FTR
5. "Reconnect" joystick/pedal axis to DCS

[Chic]

19 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

In your example, George is not pressing FTR before handing over controls; rather, your macro is pressing FTR right after receiving controls.  (You could also just press the "T" key on your keyboard and do this without VA, of course.)

The problem is for someone without a dead zone configured for their controls, any bit of drift in the axis will register after you take controls and before you activate FTR.  With my setup, this technique works fine, but I could see how it may not work for others.

For those with a slight drift (or no dead zone), you could probably use something like Joystick Gremlin (or similar) to temporarily disable your inputs until FTR has been pressed.

1. "Disconnect" joystick/pedal axis from DCS
2. Request control
3. pause .5 sec
4. Press FTR
5. "Reconnect" joystick/pedal axis to DCS

Our sequencing practically identical.  In actuality, self centering controllers should see negligible drift.

Yours looks like a preferable solution for non centering controllers.

Thanks for the constructive feedback.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Chic

[Gremlin17]

George is forever putting me in VRS when I’m heavy. Not cool George, not cool.

[Chic]

How bout a Vuichard Recovery Maneuver Macros!

[Chic]

The  "Give Me Controls"  command works well when you are in the CPG seat a want to take the controls.

When you are in the CPG seat and want to switch to the Pilot seat, the "Pilot"  command will switch your seat and instantly re-trim to your centered cyclic position before the control indicator diamond jumps.  

Edited May 4, 2023 by Chic

[450Devil]

@Chic Thank you for the suggestion. I have tried it and, while George is not to be relied on, it certainly seems to give me the edge in taking control.

[Loophole]

Just tested the latest Beta 2.8.5.40170 - sadly, George still thinks its not his responsibility to trim the aircraft before handover.

[Loophole]

Just tested the latest Beta 2.8.7.42538, and George is still neglecting his responsibility to trim the aircraft before handover.  The fact that it works for handover from human pilots shows that if the trim *was* set it would carry across correctly.  All it probably needs is a single line of code in the 'handover' logic.

[Loophole]

Checked the update 2.8.8.43489 - still no trim on handover from George as Pilot.  It works fine if you hand over from a human pilot to a human CPG; it just needs George to click that "trim" button on handover.   Surely that could be added and enabled through a "Special" settings option?

[Loophole]

I recently spent some time learning the Mi-24, and guess what?  Petrovich as pilot trims the controls before handing them back to you - so the Mi-24 works perfectly in that regard!  So all that needs to be done for the Apache is exactly whatever was implemented for the Mi-24!

Edited September 10, 2023 by Loophole

[Loophole]

Oh yeah! 
As of DCS Open Beta 2.9.0.46801 George now trims the controls before handing them back to you! 

Hallelujah! 

It didn't make it into the release notes, but it did get fixed!