correct as is TACAN A/A Bug Air Refueling

[Sn8ke]

If you guys are having trouble finding the tanker, try using radar and/or datalink contacts or the fail safe radio menu /, AWACS, ‘Vector to tanker.’ The reason people are having difficulties finding the real world answer on this is because its not something that is supposed to be widely known and understood. We are creeping into the grey area or security protected information. We got to keep our tanker brothers safe when forward deployed. 

[Ahmed]

5 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

Did some more digging this morning and asked a different F18 pilot in more depth (though this guy has only flown Rhinos, but I suspect the TCN functionality is mostly similar)

- You can't select A/A and T/R at the same time, it's one of the three (T/R, REC, A/A) (This correlates when I asked the first F18 pilot [who has flown the F18C] who also said T/R or A/A separately, I was a little confused because in DCS you can choose more than one at a time, but this new info helps clear that up)

- He has only worked with KC-135's so he can't speak to KC-10's and if T/R would be used when you get bearing information.

- He was very clear that you only receive range to a KC-135 and that you are in A/A mode only.

Still don't have a clear answer to what was previously mentioned regarding the KC-10 source, but that isn't in DCS anyway so I wouldn't worry about that right now anyways.

T/R has nothing to do with bearing but with DME. A/A is implicitly a T/R method as it gives DME and for DME you need to transmit a pulse so that a response can be sent back.

For the rest, all of it is very well known information: KC-135 only gives DME and works in A/A mode, confirmed by both documentation and SMEs. No idea why this got changed and has gone unacknowledged for son long.

For now better to forget about TACAN and just used other means to locate the tanker until this gets acknowledged and fixed...

[Bunny Clark]

7 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

Still don't have a clear answer to what was previously mentioned regarding the KC-10 source, but that isn't in DCS anyway so I wouldn't worry about that right now anyways.

For what it's worth it was also stated on the Fighter Pilot Podcast (forget which episode) that the KC-135 can only provide TACAN yardstick functionality, while the KC-10 and KC-46 can provide bearing and range. 

It was also mentioned that it's common practice to use radar and D/L to effect the join up, and that TACAN is not normally utilized.

[MARLAN_]

5 hours ago, Ahmed said:

T/R has nothing to do with bearing but with DME. A/A is implicitly a T/R method as it gives DME and for DME you need to transmit a pulse so that a response can be sent back.

For the rest, all of it is very well known information: KC-135 only gives DME and works in A/A mode, confirmed by both documentation and SMEs. No idea why this got changed and has gone unacknowledged for son long.

For now better to forget about TACAN and just used other means to locate the tanker until this gets acknowledged and fixed...

That makes sense. So A/A "includes" T/R?

 

3 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

For what it's worth it was also stated on the Fighter Pilot Podcast (forget which episode) that the KC-135 can only provide TACAN yardstick functionality, while the KC-10 and KC-46 can provide bearing and range. 

It was also mentioned that it's common practice to use radar and D/L to effect the join up, and that TACAN is not normally utilized.

Yea, I've heard the same thing a from both F18 pilots I asked, totally checks out and makes sense.

[Minsky]

4 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

It was also mentioned that it's common practice to use radar and D/L to effect the join up, and that TACAN is not normally utilized.

In DCS, the poor man's bearing pointer (ADF) could also help.

[Frederf]

In the F-16 the modes are "REC" "T/R" and "A/A T/R" or "A/A TR" (just a slight label change). REC and T/R are the ground modes. A/A T/R is the air mode. At least with the F-16 it's not possible to enable the air-to-air mode that is receive-only. The vast majority of air-to-air TACAN use requires the cooperative transceiving to get distance. Airborne bearing is quite rare and that's the only situation where air-to-air receive only would make any amount of sense.

The full list of theoretical TACAN modes to select from would be:

• Air-to-ground receive-only (F/A-18 "RCV")
• Air-to-ground transmit-receive (F/A-18 "T/R")
• Air-to-air receive-only (F/A-18 no such mode)
• Air-to-air transmit-receive (F/A-18 "A/A")

There is no situation where going from receive-only to transmit-receive suddenly adds bearing. Bearing service is a function of the host transmitting and the client receiving. The client transmitting adds nothing to the ability of client to find direction to host. Distance is fundamentally a cooperative mode where both parties must transmit. One sends a "ping" to the other, other transmits a "ping" back. Original aircraft considers the time from send to receive and calculates distance according to speed-of-light.

Whether a KC-135 can do bearing service depends on if it has that equipment installed. Some do, some don't.

In the F/A-18 it's not clear if "A/A" mode supports air-to-air bearing service or not. Thing is that air-to-air service happens at different pulse coding (24 microsecond) than air-to-ground service (18 and 36 microsecond). If a tanker was providing bearing and range service at 24 microsecond pulse coding then the only chance an F/A-18 would be compatible is in the "A/A" mode. If the F/A-18 was in "T/R" or "RCV" as configured for air-to-ground service it would be looking for 18 (X) or 36 (Y) uS pulse coding and would filter out the tanker's 24 microsecond signal.

I feel progress is not possible until pulse coding is understood and how (as far as I can work out) "cross talk" between air-to-air and air-to-ground signal types shouldn't happen even the two different modes are using identical transmit and reply frequencies.

[tech_op2000]

I found an interesting behavior in the mission editor. If I set a tanker tacan to Y. I could select A/A in my hornet and get bearing only. I could also set T/R and get bearing and range.

If I set a tanker tacan to X, I could not get ranging or bearing if I selected A/A.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by tech_op2000

[Frederf]

If you look up the table of send/reply frequencies for ground X, ground Y, air X, and air Y you'll see why. A/A frequencies are altered from their ground config but with Y code both ground and air are already altered.

[GazAce]

I can find my Tanker using TCN & I can see my Tanker on my DDI & in my HUD & I can also talk to my Tanker..  isn't that all you need? 

[skywalker22]

This thread could be put under General Bugs (like has been mine): https://forum.dcs.world/topic/295183-tacan-navigation-air-refuling-still-not-working/

Both threads could be merged as well.

A question: did you guys at ED do any progress regarding A/A refueling?

Edited September 8, 2022 by skywalker22