correct as is AIM-54 RWR detection behavior

[Biggus]

Found something interesting with the Viper RWR (also seems to be occurring with other ED modules, but not the third party modules I've tested).

AIM-54 TWS launches are detected by RWR immediately as the missile leaves the rail, regardless of range.  I am  under the impression that this is incorrect behavior.  I've attached a track and a log.  My system specs are as follows:

5800X, RTX 3070, 32 gb DDR3600.  DCS is running on an SSD.

The test missions included a single red F-14B (ROE weapons free), a single red A-50 and four friendly blue vipers, on both Caucasus and Persian Gulf.

Quick edit:  I should note that the behavior was present with all AI F-14 variations,  as well as each of the Phoenix variants.  I should also mention that thus far, I haven't tested against player Tomcats.

F16CvsF14B.trk dcs.log PG F16CvsF14B.trk

Edited May 27, 2022 by Biggus
Extra detail.

[Biggus]

2 hours ago, AirMeister said:

F14 a.i  always fires in STT mode , never in TWS

This is apparently no longer true.

[skywalker22]

This is not a bug, thats perfectly fine.

The point is, when Phoenix is launched, the radar signal type on F-14 is changed, and that is what RWR detects, which is translated as missile launch.

What is actually happening at the time of launch, is that illumination channels for Continuous Wave (CW) and/or HPRF PD are turned on. Which is good enough fingerprint for RWR to detect.

Edited July 12, 2022 by skywalker22

[near_blind]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:21 AM, skywalker22 said:

This is not a bug, thats perfectly fine.

The point is, when Phoenix is launched, the radar signal type on F-14 is changed, and that is what RWR detects, which is translated as missile launch.

What is actually happening at the time of launch, is that illumination channels for Continuous Wave (CW) and/or HPRF PD are turned on. Which is good enough fingerprint for RWR to detect.

How does the signal change for an AIM-54 launch? CW in the Tomcat is specifically an AIM-7 thing, the AIM-54 is looking for the PD wave form. There's no switch to HRPF because all AWG-9 PD modes (TWS, RWS, PD-STT, PD Search) are HPRF: the radar doesn't use MPRF and LPRF is pulse only, which the AIM-54 cannot guide on. The only emission that would explicitly tip off a launch would be post launch cueing signals from the AWG-9 to the missile, but if we're going down that route, I'm not sure any TWS launch would be considered quiet. 

[skywalker22]

3 hours ago, near_blind said:

How does the signal change for an AIM-54 launch? CW in the Tomcat is specifically an AIM-7 thing, the AIM-54 is looking for the PD wave form. There's no switch to HRPF because all AWG-9 PD modes (TWS, RWS, PD-STT, PD Search) are HPRF: the radar doesn't use MPRF and LPRF is pulse only, which the AIM-54 cannot guide on. The only emission that would explicitly tip off a launch would be post launch cueing signals from the AWG-9 to the missile, but if we're going down that route, I'm not sure any TWS launch would be considered quiet. 

I had in mind STT mode (when you get a missile launch warning), as OP was asking for.

[near_blind]

14 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

I had in mind STT mode (when you get a missile launch warning), as OP was asking for.

 

On 5/26/2022 at 9:44 PM, Biggus said:

AIM-54 TWS launches are detected by RWR immediately as the missile leaves the rail, regardless of range.  I am  under the impression that this is incorrect behavior

(Even in STT, CW isn't a thing with AIM-54s, but that's a separate topic)

[skywalker22]

26 minutes ago, near_blind said:

 

(Even in STT, CW isn't a thing with AIM-54s, but that's a separate topic)

So CW for Fox1 Sparrow only?

[mettschnitte]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb skywalker22:

So CW for Fox1 Sparrow only?

CW is only relevant for Sparrow employment, in both STT and Flood. For Aim-54 in PDSTT Pulse Doppler Illumination is utilized. It has a 100% duty cycle compared to ~50% for the STT that's why RWR should pick it up. In PSTT the missile gets a bearing and azimuth elevation for launch and locks the first thing it finds. There is no midcourse guidance or SARH in PSTT.

Am 12.7.2022 um 09:21 schrieb skywalker22:

This is not a bug, thats perfectly fine.

The point is, when Phoenix is launched, the radar signal type on F-14 is changed, and that is what RWR detects, which is translated as missile launch.

What is actually happening at the time of launch, is that illumination channels for Continuous Wave (CW) and/or HPRF PD are turned on. Which is good enough fingerprint for RWR to detect.

In TWS there is no illumination of the target. In TWS the AIM-54 guides with radio commands only no PDI, no CW, no other mode is turned on or off. It's just a track file and a calculated intercept point. The last 15/10/5nm it goes active looking for the target itseld. The AWG-9 is only acting like a search radar and should only be detected as such.

Edited July 14, 2022 by mettschnitte
factual correction

[skywalker22]

20 minutes ago, mettschnitte said:

In PSTT the missile gets a bearing and azimuth for launch and locks the first thing it finds.

Bearing and azimuth? Thats same thing. I know there are differences from technical point of view.

20 minutes ago, mettschnitte said:

In TWS there is no illumination of the target. In TWS the AIM-54 guides with radio commands only no PDI, no CW, no other mode is turned on or off. It's just a track file and a calculated intercept point. The last 15/10/5nm it goes active looking for the target itseld. The AWG-9 is only acting like a search radar and should only be detected as such.

I was refering to STT, as OP was asking about.

Edited July 14, 2022 by skywalker22

[mettschnitte]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb skywalker22:

Bearing and azimuth?

Oh disregard i meant Bearing and elevation, i corrected it
 

 

vor 13 Minuten schrieb skywalker22:

STT, as OP was asking about.

 

Am 27.5.2022 um 04:44 schrieb Biggus:

AIM-54 TWS launches are detected by RWR

OP is specifically talking about TWS launches

[Biggus]

Yes, this is in TWS.

The image in the first post is an AI F-14 firing four missiles at four targets in rapid succession.  Although in that image the range is quite low (but still outside the range where the missiles have gone active), I've had the RWR warn in the viper, the hornet and the warthog at much greater distances, as if the shot was active off the rail.

[skywalker22]

1 hour ago, mettschnitte said:

OP is specifically talking about TWS launches

But wasn`t he wrong, in TWS you do not get missile warning, at least not from 60nm out when launched, right? But only when missile goes pitbull. I would say he meant STT mode.

PS: I don't own F-14, so I might be wrong about misisles warning on F-16's RWR.

But as far as I know, current AI on F-14 can only fire Phoenix in STT mode.

Edited July 14, 2022 by skywalker22

[Biggus]

That's the bug I'm reporting.

A TWS shot should not trigger the RWR until the missile goes active.  But right now, if you are in a Hornet, a Viper or a Warthog, you will get an active missile warning as soon as the F-14 fires, regardless of how far away it is.  It could be 100nm and it'll still set off the Viper's RWR the moment the missile leaves the rail.

Please read the first post carefully and look at the image and the tracks.  The AI is absolutely firing in TWS.  There's a matching bug report in the Hornet and the Warthog bug subforums, each with tracks. 

[skywalker22]

I read it carefully, but I thought that AI is only using STT mode, thats why you get a missile warning. And btw, how can you tell, its firing in TWS mode?

[mettschnitte]

Can't look at the tracks atm but should definetly be retested with two human players. AI coding is sometimes weird and not accurately modelled to what a players sensor would show them/ how they would react. If this RWR bug still happens when human tomcat is shooting human f-16/-18/a-10 it is an ED RWR problem and surely not modelled correct as is.

[Biggus]

5 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

I read it carefully, but I thought that AI is only using STT mode, thats why you get a missile warning. And btw, how can you tell, its firing in TWS mode?

You cannot STT four missiles simultaneously.

 

@mettschnitte Yes, that's something I haven't been able to test yet.

[mettschnitte]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Biggus:

You cannot STT four missiles simultaneously

Like i said AI might be doing something weird here. I asked somebody to test, will report back when answered or you find a buddy to test with.

[skywalker22]

2 hours ago, mettschnitte said:

Can't look at the tracks atm but should definetly be retested with two human players. AI coding is sometimes weird and not accurately modelled to what a players sensor would show them/ how they would react. If this RWR bug still happens when human tomcat is shooting human f-16/-18/a-10 it is an ED RWR problem and surely not modelled correct as is.

I was doing BVR yesterday, me in F-16 and some friend of mine in F-14. And no missile warning what so ever while shooting at me Phoenixes for an hour. Only a simbol of him on RWR.

[Biggus]

That's a good sign.

[skywalker22]

It's only happening with AI. I asked few people yesterday, and they all said, AI uses TWS mode in BVR engagements with Phoenix missile.

If so, this must be a bug @BIGNEWY. 

If AI really uses TWS mode in BVR, its virtually impossible for you as an oponent getting missile warning. This only happenes when missile goes MPRF active.

[mettschnitte]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb skywalker22:

If so, this must be a bug

AI limitations may have lead to the solution of utilizing multiple stt locks from a single ship as substitution for multiple TWS tracks. This is a wrong implementation and should go into review.

[Biggus]

@BIGNEWY could we please take another look at this?  This cannot be correct as-is.

An RWR should not receive an active missile warning at dozens of miles away immediately upon launch.