Some Questions About Landing

[Silvera]

Hello everyone, i am a PPL student and new here. Have been trying to learn Viper for the last 6 months as i am passionate about flying fighter jets, especially F16.

I would like to get some help about my landings. The problem is when i approach the base aircraft becomes very very sensitive and wobbly. That is happening with or without the load, no matter what i have. I don't know if this is the correct behaviour. I have X56 hotas and i tried setting up some curves and tweaked some sensitivity settings but it made it worse so i am not using any curves at the moment. I am adding a track of one of the missions i tried. Please don't judge my approach as i am still a beginner.  I only fly in VR by the way, never tried otherwise. I don't know if that might be the issue. 

My second question is i cannot keep the nose of the plane up on 13 deg AoA, wants to go down 4-5 secs after touchdown. (with no load again.) 

I would like to get some help here. I watched Matt Wagner's landings millions of times but in my case aircraft becomes extremely sensitive before touchdown as if there's 30kts wind blowing!

 

Thanks in advance

Claire

 

edit: https://easyupload.io/9b6az2   my track is here sorry it was bigger than supported

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Silvera
track added

[razo+r]

Try to fly again in an empty mission and only do the part where you have troubles with, that should reduce the size of the track. 

[CobaltUK]

Speed, height on approach ? Is it stable until wheels lowered ? Touchdown speed ? Suggest you use the landing mission to create a track so conditions are known factor.

 

 

A quick check on that for myself. Final at 155knts touching down at 145 and nose dropped at runway exit C

Edited June 26, 2022 by CobaltUK

[Silvera]

6 minutes ago, CobaltUK said:

Speed, height on approach ? Is it stable until wheels lowered ? Touchdown speed ? Suggest you use the landing mission to create a track so conditions are known factor.

Thanks for the answer, i have just uploaded the track. Will create shorter one later but this one was great to show my point.

[IR.Clutch]

By the way, I have the same issue lately. After the latest updates. Viper has become very sensitive.

Watch also youtube video from Gaffer DCS, it explains well the landing, trimming, etc.

Edited June 26, 2022 by IR Sky

[CobaltUK]

No wonder the file is big. You started it with a cold start on ground !  BTW not everybody has Syria.  4.5 mb file using installed quick mission landing.

[Silvera]

12 minutes ago, IR Sky said:

By the way, I have the same issue lately. After the latest updates. Viper has become very sensitive.

Watch also youtube video from Gaffer DCS, it explains well the landing, trimming, etc.

 

Thanks! 

Yes i find it very sensitive especially when the speed is between 160-180kts.

I will watch the video but i assumed we don't trim for landing this aircraft? 

3 minutes ago, CobaltUK said:

No wonder the file is big. You started it with a cold start on ground !  BTW not everybody has Syria.  4.5 mb file using installed quick mission landing.

Oh i thought it could be watched starting from a point of choice. my bad! Will make a shorter version, thanks Cobalt!

[IR.Clutch]

 I know this mission, the author is a big fan of crosswinds and turbulence. No worries. Everything OK with the aircraft and you. You just have to practice more. Turbulence in this mission = 23 and crosswind.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ru/files/3322776/

Trimming is essential and makes it easier to land.

 

[CobaltUK]

Somebody will hopefully have advice but your starting point ought to be i suggest, the quick mission Landing. Both for practise and to create a file than anyone can look at. Load mission into mission editor. Save as new name into My Missions folder. That way you can save the track after flight which i do not think you can with the quick missions.

 

 

I think IR Sky already came up with your answer

Edited June 26, 2022 by CobaltUK

[IR.Clutch]

In another his mission "Crab Landing" with heavy 25 knots crosswind I feel exactly like a crab

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ru/files/3323106/

 

 

[IR.Clutch]

35 минут назад, CobaltUK сказал:

No wonder the file is big. You started it with a cold start on ground !  BTW not everybody has Syria.  4.5 mb file using installed quick mission landing.

I totally agree. next time you'd better provide a shorter track, so as not to watch a "movie" about your mission

Edited June 26, 2022 by IR Sky

[schmiefel]

1 hour ago, Silvera said:

I would like to get some help about my landings.

this video tutorial helped me a lot:

I don't know if this is right to the books and was wondering that he kept the AOA slightly in the fast position, but it works like charm and that's what counts for me

[CobaltUK]

Did not look bad to me. I would have come in lower and slower and since there is a strong crosswind i think getting the nose down for tracking stability is preferred to aero brake. I did not notice if you deployed air brake towards the end. They were not out on final i did notice.

Edited June 26, 2022 by CobaltUK

[Silvera]

34 minutes ago, IR Sky said:

 I know this mission, the author is a big fan of crosswinds and turbulence. No worries. Everything OK with the aircraft and you. You just have to practice more. Turbulence in this mission = 23 and crosswind.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ru/files/3322776/

Trimming is essential and makes it easier to land.

 

Quite a relief for me now!

I still have the same instability with AG load landings though. Are you setting CAT I or CAT 3 while landing? I think it affects sensitivity as well.

[Silvera]

45 minutes ago, CobaltUK said:

Did not look bad to me. I would have come in lower and slower and since there is a strong crosswind i think getting the nose down for tracking stability is preferred to aero brake. I did not notice if you deployed air brake towards the end. They were not out on final i did notice.

 

I put the speedbrakes out before i put the gear down and after touchdown i am extending them fully when the nose comes down, should be the proper way, right? 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Silvera

[IR.Clutch]

I finished watching your track. It's a pretty good landing. The only thing is the crosswind and turbulence. I haven't had much experience myself) Still getting used to it.  Therefore, I cannot claim to be an expert.

Edited June 26, 2022 by IR Sky

[Frederf]

3 hours ago, Silvera said:

I put the speedbrakes out before i put the gear down and after touchdown i am extending them fully when the nose comes down, should be the proper way, right? 

 

Yeah, sb out level, gear down when beginning descent, sb full when three point attitude is typical

[Aquorys]

The AoA decreases somewhat as you enter the ground effect shortly before the touchdown due to increased lift. I normally keep the flight path marker at the top of the AoA bracket on approach, then as I flare, two things happen: 1. ground effect decreases AoA, 2. flaring reduces speed, which increases AoA. I flare to almost level flight, let's say, with the flight path marker about 0.5 degrees below the horizon line, and then I just reduce thrust and keep the nose-up angle until the aircraft touches down. Once the rear wheels contact the runway, nose up to 12~13 degrees AoA, relax the stick around 100 knots to let the nose come down, as the nose comes down you pull back on the stick to soften the touchdown of the nose gear. Finally, fully extend the airbrake and apply wheel brakes, nose-wheel steering on, stick all the way back, and optionally hold the pitch override.

That being said, don't make the landings too soft. I'm not saying you should slam it into the ground like a Hornet onto the boat, but a good landing is one where the aircraft settles firmly onto the runway. You don't want it to be still flying when the wheels touch the ground, it'll just make it jump around and possibly up again, might get you into pilot induced oscillation, etc., so trying to make it a super-soft landing might just end up making it a harder one than going for a firmer landing in the first place.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Aquorys

[Wing]

Something I have learned over the last year with the Viper,
The F16s FLCS handles this amount of crosswind nicely, and will adjust on crabbed touchdown. "A normal plane dips the upwind wing and counters with the rudder to keep the plane on the centerline, landing on one wheel but straight down the runway. A F16 pilot said the Viper cant do this because it loses too much lift with its small wings and they run the risk of hitting the missile on stations 1 or 9. So they just land crabbed and stay that way throughout the roll out and "wobble" down the runway until the nose wheel comes down." This will also be a unique training factor for Viper pilots in DCS...

Source from real world aircrew: https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9288

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Wing

[Silvera]

1 hour ago, Aquorys said:

The AoA decreases somewhat as you enter the ground effect shortly before the touchdown due to increased lift. I normally keep the flight path marker at the top of the AoA bracket on approach, then as I flare, two things happen: 1. ground effect decreases AoA, 2. flaring reduces speed, which increases AoA. I flare to almost level flight, let's say, with the flight path marker about 0.5 degrees below the horizon line, and then I just reduce thrust and keep the nose-up angle until the aircraft touches down. Once the rear wheels contact the runway, nose up to 12~13 degrees AoA, relax the stick around 100 knots to let the nose come down, as the nose comes down you pull back on the stick to soften the touchdown of the nose gear. Finally, fully extend the airbrake and apply wheel brakes, nose-wheel steering on, stick all the way back, and optionally hold the pitch override.

Great, that's exactly what i was doing with my landings, at least trying to do so. Thanks for suggestions!

 

6 minutes ago, Wing said:

Something I have learned over the last year with the Viper,
The F16s FLCS handles this amount of crosswind nicely, and will adjust on crabbed touchdown. "A normal plane dips the upwind wing and counters with the rudder to keep the plane on the centerline, landing on one wheel but straight down the runway. A F16 pilot said the Viper cant do this because it loses too much lift with its small wings and they run the risk of hitting the missile on stations 1 or 9. So they just land crabbed and stay that way throughout the roll out and "wobble" down the runway until the nose wheel comes down." This will also be a unique training factor for Viper pilots in DCS...

Source from real world aircrew: https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9288

 

 

Hi Wing, thanks for the comment. May i ask you if it's correct not to use the rudders against the wind then considering his statement?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Silvera

[Wing]

8 minutes ago, Silvera said:

Great, that's exactly what i was doing with my landings, at least trying to do so. Thanks for suggestions!

 

Hi Wing, thanks for the comment. May i ask you if it's correct not to use the rudders against the wind then considering his statement?

 

From my understanding, after reading that thread on F-16.net rudder snapping on touch down is risky in the Viper - depending on wind... Its quite a different dynamic compared to something conventional like a Cessna

[Frederf]

FLCS changes laws on WOW so touchdown with rudder input is strongly advised against. Bad things (tm) can happen.

[Bremspropeller]

On 6/26/2022 at 1:56 PM, schmiefel said:

I don't know if this is right to the books and was wondering that he kept the AOA slightly in the fast position, but it works like charm and that's what counts for me

IIRC that's the correct procedure. It gives you a bit of a margin for the flare.

For my taste he flared a bit early and pulled the power late, so he went pretty far into the runway, before the touch down. I'd reverse the two. But that's just my technique.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Jackjack171]

On 6/26/2022 at 4:14 AM, Silvera said:

 

I will watch the video but i assumed we don't trim for landing this aircraft? 

 

Never assume at all. That leads to troubles. For the Viper there is no need to trim for landing. Once the gear comes down, it takes care of itself! Adjust your throttle to set the AOA at 11 degrees. 

[Frederf]

I usually trim a bit. The FLCS will hold pitch up to 10 AOA so you need a little nose up if you want to approach stick neutral at 11-13 AOA. Trim is a pilot aid, there's no can't/must do about it. You can approach and land with 1G trim if you want but it takes some back pressure to hit the 11-13AOA.