Flaming Clifs 3 RUS aircraft useless ET/T Optical system nerf

[mrfoxik]

Hey all.
I am an big fun of Russian planes, and discovered that after big nerf of IR/ET detector Su27, Mig 29, and SU33 is turbo useless and not worth of buy to fight on DDCS or other servers where you have to fight against SARH bs ARH.

Before Su27 was good able to fight against ARH missiles and planes, by having posibility to launch ET missile. Now you can pick up ET target from ~10-13km when range of missile is 25 km, WTF?
ET missile in Russian palnes was THE HOPE fire and forget missile, this was the missile what you could kill modern fighters. ER and R you can put in to your shoes  when you have to keep lock on target when enemy launched already fox 3 to you and he is escaping.

Flaming Cliffs 3 is not worth to buy any more. It is better to buy F15, F16, F18. Russian planes are outdated and useless.

[Mike_Romeo]

There wasnt a nerf and the Flankers are still competetive with skilled pilots. Detection range of EO depends on various factors such as the heat of the engine (Afterburner on/off) and aspect.

[okopanja]

I agree that modern RED aircraft, save for JF-17 are underrepresented and seemingly unsupported.  Main reason is that legal limitations are in place that prohibit ED or 3rd party developers (through ED), to implement something more modern. Normally, this means that ED limits the activity only to the most critical bugs.

I am also a big fan, but as always in life one has to adapt.

The other side also adopts and learns defensive tricks, that make it more difficult for EO to detect the way you expect. In general it will detect the after-burning aircraft on 3-9 line, or even slightly forward. Non-afterburning aircraft require you you to position yourself behind the 3-9 line.

Also note that in close combat EO works just great, to the level I do not use the radar normally: just make sure you do not go head to head with them, since you will likely get killed.

Just to prove it to you, that flanker can be a top dog in BVR with ETs even today, I will share a video of mine (I am not really a content creator and mostly created the video to demonstrate the possibility to the people who did not believe me). There is a long description explain the thinking behind this strategy, but it assumes you have a steady hand and to have some prior experience with flanker. Also the video contains the comments on the actions being made.

Btw: there are really great videos from way better pilots than me like sukhoi or plazma, and you may want to check out their videos.

Also notice that F-15C is FC3 as well, and in fact in worse shape (save for the ability to use top-dog AIM-120C missile) than flankers where you can use J-11A with R-77.

 

I will publish soon more videos on this particular technique, depicting different situations with opponents. (E.g. shooting down high/low, speedy/slow opponent).

Just for the record: I do own F-16C and fly it occasionally, but probably because I got introduced to ED's product from the very start, I kind of prefer the RED aircraft.

Edited July 17, 2022 by okopanja

[draconus]

On 7/17/2022 at 11:50 AM, mrfoxik said:

Flaming Cliffs 3 is not worth to buy any more. It is better to buy F15, F16, F18. Russian planes are outdated and useless.

This is your opinion. Mind that users buy it for all different reasons than just winning poorly designed MP missions. Also FC3 is currently the only way to flight any modern'ish Red fighter in DCS.

@okopanja I consider BDA/kill info a cheat.

Edited September 23, 2022 by draconus

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

@okopanja I consider BDA/kill info a cheat

Ahh, you meant kill message, off course its not realistic:

1. On GS server this is something admin decided

2. In my case, I do not make further decisions based on it. I already knew I have limited fuel and need to escape to base(I retain enough momentum  to keep flying above 2000km/h TAS). At that speed and situation there are not many object that can follow. I did  not RTB in this case since I killed second guy with ET. Zooming in is a cheat, but in this case it was visually observable that ET connected with bandit, while ET motor was still burning.

Edited July 17, 2022 by okopanja
realized what BDA means

[Cmptohocah]

There is one thing though, ET and T have a pretty good range, but for some reason in front aspect, when the target does not have AB on, their range in less that of the R-73.
Meaning the LA comes at around 8-9km.

16 hours ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

T/ET and IRST is pretty unrealistic in DCS anyway. Once clouds block those sensors people will be in for an awakening and start using radar and radar guided missiles a lot more. 

Depends where the fight is happening. A lot of people like to fly high and above the clouds.

[okopanja]

18 hours ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

T/ET and IRST is pretty unrealistic in DCS anyway. Once clouds block those sensors people will be in for an awakening and start using radar and radar guided missiles a lot more. 

If I may add: a lot of server have no clouds, or none that will actually block IRSTs or ETs. If this gets added.

If they model the effects of clouds also I hope they also model the effects of aerodynamic heating.

Here is what I found so far:

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/84975/how-much-aerodynamic-heating-do-jetliners-endure

Clearly anything going faster than Mach 1.5, already provides a very decent heat source on leading surfaces which compared to the cold background, creates a rather strong contrast for both IRSTs and IR missiles.

The higher the speed the more heat will be generated in front aspect on leading edges and cones, especially at low and middle altitudes.

[okopanja]

thanks for this...

[Cmptohocah]

Did I understand the picture correctly: it should lock at 18km in front hemisphere?

What does the red region depict?

[Cmptohocah]

23 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

Rear aspect. We have the original 36T seeker in DCS. A3-10 is an enlarged version of the Impuls seeker from the R-74M project (current R73)

 

I think I got it. Yellow is the old seeker and red is the new one. I think rear aspect for the old one is 60-70km.

[draconus]

41 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

No, top portion is the old one...

No, top is named "front hemisphere of the target" and bottom says "rear hemisphere...". Red areas are extended range parts of the newer seaker as says the top bold text.

Edited July 18, 2022 by draconus

[okopanja]

12 minutes ago, draconus said:

No, top is named "front hemisphere of the target" and bottom says "rear hemisphere...". Red areas are extended range parts of the newer seaker as says the top bold text.

 

Yes graph matches the numeric values.

[Ironhand]

Yup. And below that it lists “approaching” (F-15) 16-18 km,  “in pursuit of” 60-70 km

Edited July 18, 2022 by Ironhand

[Cmptohocah]

Does it mention anything about afterburner?
I guess, but also I could be totally wrong, the AB should not really matter in front-hemisphere. Then again, what's the seeker picking up? Contrast from the aircraft body?

[okopanja]

2 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Does it mention anything about afterburner?

Likely MIL power.

[Ironhand]

15 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Does it mention anything about afterburner?
I guess, but also I could be totally wrong, the AB should not really matter in front-hemisphere. Then again, what's the seeker picking up? Contrast from the aircraft body?

Nothing in there references afterburner that I see. What sensor is “seeing” in front aspect is the heat caused by air friction.

[mrfoxik]

ET/IRST in flankers nerfed what makes the plane useles now. IF enemies afterburner is off you can pick up object from ~10km when the missile ET has 25km range, so the plane sensor is worse and in many cases you will not use whole potential of ET, ET that is last and one hope for redfor low fidelity plane pilots.
And now try to come closer to Fx planes on 10 km, AIMxx will eat you 10 times . But now finaly we have pay to win balance, you pay 10$ for su27 you get <profanity>y plane, pay 80$ and you can be king of the airspace. Many low skilled players cried too much that they bought platform for teens of $ and got raped by Su27 for 10 $. It is starting to be pay to win game.

[okopanja]

4 minutes ago, mrfoxik said:

ET/IRST in flankers nerfed what makes the plane useles now. IF enemies afterburner is off you can pick up object from ~10km when the missile ET has 25km range, so the plane sensor is worse and in many cases you will not use whole potential of ET, ET that is last and one hope for redfor low fidelity plane pilots.
And now try to come closer to Fx planes on 10 km, AIMxx will eat you 10 times . But now finaly we have pay to win balance, you pay 10$ for su27 you get <profanity>y plane, pay 80$ and you can be king of the airspace. Many low skilled players cried too much that they bought platform for teens of $ and got raped by Su27 for 10 $. It is starting to be pay to win game.

Funny, I hit people at 35-67km with ET...

[draconus]

@mrfoxik You're so wrong I don't even know where to start. Let me try.

DCS is not about any "balance". It's about realistic representation of aircraft in flight and combat. You can still win with poor old hardware if you like the challenge but it takes skill and team cooperation. Whining on the forum won't make you better, only practice will. That you have choosen poorly made missions and servers to fight on that is your problem, or did you expect fair fight with 80s Su-27 vs 2010 F-16? Try cold war servers for a change. Try F-15C - it's also 15$ but will probably help you "win" more if that is what you care most. A-10C is 80$ but I fail to see how it makes you "king of the airspace".

[mrfoxik]

On 9/7/2022 at 10:32 PM, okopanja said:

Funny, I hit people at 35-67km with ET...

If they have afterburner ON! So yes you can shoot down those noobs. If afterburner is OFF you will be able to pick up target from 12 km. Many players do not understand many things and experience what they have comes from Counter Strike server like Growling.

More inteligent players in bluefor like me and some others do not use afterburner when 29 is on RWR, so we block long shots of ET up to 12 km. And second thing bluefor pilot must be an idiot to allow FC3 planes come in closer than 15km.

On 9/8/2022 at 12:22 PM, draconus said:

@mrfoxik You're so wrong I don't even know where to start. Let me try.

DCS is not about any "balance". It's about realistic representation of aircraft in flight and combat. You can still win with poor old hardware if you like the challenge but it takes skill and team cooperation. Whining on the forum won't make you better, only practice will. That you have choosen poorly made missions and servers to fight on that is your problem, or did you expect fair fight with 80s Su-27 vs 2010 F-16? Try cold war servers for a change. Try F-15C - it's also 15$ but will probably help you "win" more if that is what you care most. A-10C is 80$ but I fail to see how it makes you "king of the airspace".

You compare A10C sturm plane to king of the airspace fighters?

Man we are talking about FIGHTERS!!!!

 

MOREOVER:
Fighter head to head FL330 V~1000km/h
F15 can launch AIM120B from 67km (fox3)
F15 can launch AIM120C from 75km (fox3)

Su27 can launch R27ER from 55KM (fox1)
Su27 can launch R77 from 40KM (fox3)

What a adventage!!!!
On many sites you can read that R77 has 80km range, here ~40 about what realism we are talking about?

Bluefor planes are overpowered and they are pushing by the devs to be the best.

Edited September 15, 2022 by mrfoxik

[draconus]

6 hours ago, mrfoxik said:

On many sites you can read that R77 has 80km range...

Both shooter launch parameters and target state are needed: speed, alt, aspect, maneuvering?, CM?

Btw: our Su-27S can't use R-77. None of the missiles are at their final dev stage. R series is pending update too.

Edited September 15, 2022 by draconus

[mrfoxik]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Both shooter launch parameters and target state are needed: speed, alt, aspect, maneuvering?, CM?

Btw: our Su-27S can't use R-77. None of the missiles are at their final dev stage. R series is pending update too.

 

target state are needed: speed, alt, aspect, maneuvering?, CM?
Fighter head to head FL330 V~1000km/h as above
There is mistake Su27 and R77: It should be J-11 and R77
For me 27 an 11  is the same plane but with R77 capability.

[draconus]

8 minutes ago, mrfoxik said:

Fighter head to head FL330 V~1000km/h as above

I meant the advertised 80km shot.

[okopanja]

9 hours ago, mrfoxik said:

If they have afterburner ON! So yes you can shoot down those noobs. If afterburner is OFF you will be able to pick up target from 12 km. Many players do not understand many things and experience what they have comes from Counter Strike server like Growling.

More inteligent players in bluefor like me and some others do not use afterburner when 29 is on RWR, so we block long shots of ET up to 12 km. And second thing bluefor pilot must be an idiot to allow FC3 planes come in closer than 15km.

Find me on youtube, in the part 1 video,  described the thinking behind.

In general most people do not expect ET at that range and do not realize someone to fly Mach 2 (instead of expect Mach 1) toward them. From their perspective: huge PK circle (look stupid flanker, I serve him an AMRAAM), until it reduces to minimum (flanker got cold and escapes AMRAAM at Mach 1.6-2) and few seconds later they eat ET which still travels at Mach 2-3. The more experienced usually crank and keep aggressive, which is miscalculation due to initial high speed of a missile, but they usually do not bother with closure rates.

Also note that the main limiting factor is not a ballistic range but 60 seconds of power supply for R/T/ER/ET. There is no evidence that turbo-generator device is any different. After this the missile will go dumb even if it still has enough energy.

As for the Su-27 they did indeed receive upgrades for 77s family, and those are designated Su-27SM/SM2 while Su-27SM3 were built as new.

However they are not in DCS, and are still on active duty.

[Ironhand]

23 hours ago, mrfoxik said:

On many sites you can read that R77 has 80km range, here ~40 about what realism we are talking about?

How about 95 km in the sim? If the brief lock hadn’t broken, I had launch authorization at just inside 95 km. I couldn’t relock and launch until just above 80, though you can see RMax-1 remains at 95:

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Ironhand