Landing how to ?

[Geier]

Well, Geier has found a way for him to land even if it's not the official, in the handbook written down, method.

This is how unique man is - there can be two totally different person, doing things on different way but achieving the same goal.

 

Abstract thinking is allowed here :)

Oh yes:)

Wish all happy New Year!!!

[Airway]

Oh yes:)

Wish all happy New Year!!!

 

A happy new year to you too ! :)

[Geier]

If you are saying that they reduce their throttles to land, you are terribly mistaken. Throttles stay in AUTO detent and do not move unless in the case of engine failure or practicing engine failure.

The "leaf" tech is very specific. You need lower both collective and rpm during the landing. But don't forget the round maneuvers. It's hard but usefull.

[d0ppler]

The "leaf" tech is very specific. You need lower both collective and rpm during the landing. But don't forget the round maneuvers. It's hard but usefull.

 

In that case, you should stressed when you first replied that your technique is extremely unorthodox. Do you have some sort of "documentation" of this landing technique I can read?

 

 

happy new year bro :)

[Geier]

In that case, you should stressed when you first replied that your technique is extremely unorthodox. Do you have some sort of "documentation" of this landing technique I can read?

 

 

happy new year bro :)

 

I have some memoirs of Russian helo pilots from Afghanistan war. They used this trick with Mi-8,17. But no documentation. A bit late I'll posted them here and try to find more responsible confirmation. :)

[Vortex]

Why do you lower the engine RPM manually and the collective on a heli with a governor?

 

I can understand it in heli's like the B47 and the like with no governor as it's a necessary to keep the engine RPM down.

 

But in a governed heli lowering the collective also lowers the engine RPM.

 

It is a very interesting technique and I'd love to know the details.

[AlphaOneSix]

They used this trick with Mi-8,17.

 

I have hundreds of hours flying in the Mi-17, both on tactical insertions as well as milk runs. Lowering the throttle is NEVER an option during landing. Now, in theory, they could have been trying to drop altitude faster...since the Mi-17 autos like a glider, it's hard to lose altitude sometimes without an overspeed without also lowering RPM on the throttle. HOWEVER, you would NEVER EVER go all the way to the ground with the throttle lowered from AUTO (full right in the Mi-17 twist throttle). Since you're using the term "leaf" I think this is what was being done. I can gaurantee you that they did not have the throttle lowered during the actual landing, only during from the descent from altitude (and in this way, it makes sense).

 

On the Ka-50, you would put the free turbine switch on the collective in the "Low" position during the descent, NOT reduce the throttle itself. Furthermore, when you get close to the ground, you would ABSOLUTELY bring the RPM back up to nominal. You would NOT land with reduced RPM.

Edited December 31, 2008 by AlphaOneSix

[DTWD]

I am not a proffesional pilot, but I don't think I have died in a landing in this sim yet.

 

Simply take your time and come in slow, you may find it easier to go in a wide orbit and slow yourself down. There is no need to rush. Remember height = time to re-act, comming in hot and low gives you very little room for error. Altitude is your friend, use it.

 

I have several techniques, depending on my mood, fatigue, weight (of the aircraft not me! :D), fuel and weather conditions.

 

A rolling landing is easiest if the conditions are a bit rough, your badly damaged or you can't be bothered. Basically land it like a plane, piece of pie really.

 

Auto Hover:

 

Landing with autohover is another easy one. Pick roughly where you want to land and bring the chopper in slowly and steadly at roughly a fixed altitude. When you aproach (and you roughly flat) jab the auto hover and instantly press the trim button, now keep it pressed (or latched) and balance the chopper to a speed of under 10 (...whatever the hell it's measured in) and release the trim button. The chopper should then right itself and settle to a "perfect" hover. If it's having trouble give it a little help, you may want to re-trim as well. If your lined up as you want, reduce your collective steadly until your into a steady but stable descent. If your high and your descent is quite fast you will begin to rock back and forth, just reduce your descent slightly and you will be fine. Once your at about 30 metres find the biting point and steady the chopper into a stable position. If your not quite lined up properly, trim back to position (leaving auto hover on remember) and then reduce collective and steady in at about 10 metres. Now comes the slightly tricky part. Switch off auto hover and quickly get on the trim button if you feel yourself drifting. Get yourself back into a stable hover and reduce collective until you touch the ground. You may find this last ten metres easier with altitude hold off.

 

Fight The Auto Hover:

 

The auto hover wants to keep you still, you can use this to your advantage. Position yourself roughly where you want and put it into autohover. Then you can push the helecopter to a new position and quickly re-trim for that position. Or you can disable a particular autopilot, move and re-engage that autopilot. The autohover will then take the newposition as the centre point.

 

Flight Director Landing:

 

Switch on FD and balance it out into a hover where you want to land and reduce collective until your on the ground.

 

Trim On Landing:

 

Switch off FD if it's on and activate/latch trim and land the same as FD. The advantage of this is if your in a hover you can let go of trim the autopilot will help you balance it out and you can just relax and reduce the collective into a lovely soft landing.

 

Pad Landing:

 

As you can't see over the nose of the BS two things will help you land on a pad, some form of head tracking kit and side slipping. Get yourself lined up with the pad in a hover using any of the above methods but this time be hovering off to the right of the pad, it's quite easy as you can see it through the left window. Now for the last bit just look left and open the door, check your lined up with the middle of the pad and not moving, now simply side slip into the middle of the pad, reduce collective and land.

 

Once down I apply the wheel brake and reduce the throttle down and re-set the trimmers. This stops the chopper from wanting to go anywhere. Once your settled you can bring the throttle back up to automatic.

 

The above is probably all against operating procedure, but it's how I do it and I don't think I have have ever had a major problem.

[Frederf]

I didn't think that normal vertical landings are done normally in any throttle position except auto. I don't know if the other positions are used in real life but unless I'm told they are I'm going to assume they aren't from a common sense perspective.

 

Does anyone know what the throttle positions are named? I guess they are really in Russian and any translation would be non-exact but I'm guessing "Low Idle" "High Idle" "Auto" "Max" is this correct?

 

Ericinexile, turning the autopilot channels off sounds like it would make landing more difficult?

 

Has anyone tried to use the Descent mode of the autopilot to land from an Autohover state? I need to read up on the Descent mode and how it works.

[Acedy]

Has anyone tried to use the Descent mode of the autopilot to land from an Autohover state? I need to read up on the Descent mode and how it works.

 

It will only bring you down to 4m and stop there.

[Geier]

I have hundreds of hours flying in the Mi-17, both on tactical insertions as well as milk runs. Lowering the throttle is NEVER an option during landing. Now, in theory, they could have been trying to drop altitude faster...since the Mi-17 autos like a glider, it's hard to lose altitude sometimes without an overspeed without also lowering RPM on the throttle. HOWEVER, you would NEVER EVER go all the way to the ground with the throttle lowered from AUTO (full right in the Mi-17 twist throttle). Since you're using the term "leaf" I think this is what was being done. I can gaurantee you that they did not have the throttle lowered during the actual landing, only during from the descent from altitude (and in this way, it makes sense).

 

On the Ka-50, you would put the free turbine switch on the collective in the "Low" position during the descent, NOT reduce the throttle itself. Furthermore, when you get close to the ground, you would ABSOLUTELY bring the RPM back up to nominal. You would NOT land with reduced RPM.

 

Unfortunately, I've found only one record of this technique.

The memoirs of I.A. Frolov, Mi17's flight mechanic, Afgh war

"In a week of continuous flights the life has in the war entered into the track. The head from landings in style "maple leaf" when the helicopter falls on a spiral with a speed 30 km/s was not ill any more."

http://artofwar.ru/f/frolow_i_a/text_0150.shtml

[AlphaOneSix]

Mi17's flight mechanic, Afgh war[/url]

 

Very nice! That's my job title, too! I'm an Mi-17 crew chief (flight mechanic) in A-stan. (Except I'm American, oh how times change.)

 

Thanks for posting the link for the page, even though I have to have it translated, it's a good read.

 

Anyway, this "maple leaf" thing is becoming clear to me now. For most of the war, helicopters flew nice and high to stay out of gun range. Once they arrived at their destination, they were typically still very high, unless they spent a lot of time descending (and getting back into small arms range before they arrived at a secure area). So to lose all of that altitude, they would spiral down in a 30m/s descent. In this case, they would absolutely need to lower the throttle to avoid overspeeding the rotor.

 

Of course, they didn't land the aircraft at a 30m/s descent, they would come out of their "mape leaf" descent with several hundred feet to go until landing, and when they come out of their descent, they increase the throttles back to AUTO.

[Vortex]

Ok that makes more sense, it's done to avoid a rotor overspeed on a fast descent. But the landing is performed normally with the throttle wound back up to auto.

 

Glad that's all cleared up, but it's kinda dissapointing that another landing technique wasn't uncovered.

[Acedy]

Ok that makes more sense, it's done to avoid a rotor overspeed on a fast descent.

 

That's what the FT/Rotor RPM to low or nominal switch on the collective stick is for.

[Vortex]

Ahh ok, I was wondering how you manage the throttles in a KA50 without taking you hand of the collective in real life.

[Raploc]

I am not a proffesional pilot, but I don't think I have died in a landing in this sim yet.

 

Simply take your time and come in slow, you may find it easier to go in a wide orbit and slow yourself down. There is no need to rush. Remember height = time to re-act, comming in hot and low gives you very little room for error. Altitude is your friend, use it.

 

I have several techniques, depending on my mood, fatigue, weight (of the aircraft not me! :D), fuel and weather conditions.

 

A rolling landing is easiest if the conditions are a bit rough, your badly damaged or you can't be bothered. Basically land it like a plane, piece of pie really.

 

Auto Hover:

 

Landing with autohover is another easy one. Pick roughly where you want to land and bring the chopper in slowly and steadly at roughly a fixed altitude. When you aproach (and you roughly flat) jab the auto hover and instantly press the trim button, now keep it pressed (or latched) and balance the chopper to a speed of under 10 (...whatever the hell it's measured in) and release the trim button. The chopper should then right itself and settle to a "perfect" hover. If it's having trouble give it a little help, you may want to re-trim as well. If your lined up as you want, reduce your collective steadly until your into a steady but stable descent. If your high and your descent is quite fast you will begin to rock back and forth, just reduce your descent slightly and you will be fine. Once your at about 30 metres find the biting point and steady the chopper into a stable position. If your not quite lined up properly, trim back to position (leaving auto hover on remember) and then reduce collective and steady in at about 10 metres. Now comes the slightly tricky part. Switch off auto hover and quickly get on the trim button if you feel yourself drifting. Get yourself back into a stable hover and reduce collective until you touch the ground. You may find this last ten metres easier with altitude hold off.

 

Fight The Auto Hover:

 

The auto hover wants to keep you still, you can use this to your advantage. Position yourself roughly where you want and put it into autohover. Then you can push the helecopter to a new position and quickly re-trim for that position. Or you can disable a particular autopilot, move and re-engage that autopilot. The autohover will then take the newposition as the centre point.

 

Flight Director Landing:

 

Switch on FD and balance it out into a hover where you want to land and reduce collective until your on the ground.

 

Trim On Landing:

 

Switch off FD if it's on and activate/latch trim and land the same as FD. The advantage of this is if your in a hover you can let go of trim the autopilot will help you balance it out and you can just relax and reduce the collective into a lovely soft landing.

 

Pad Landing:

 

As you can't see over the nose of the BS two things will help you land on a pad, some form of head tracking kit and side slipping. Get yourself lined up with the pad in a hover using any of the above methods but this time be hovering off to the right of the pad, it's quite easy as you can see it through the left window. Now for the last bit just look left and open the door, check your lined up with the middle of the pad and not moving, now simply side slip into the middle of the pad, reduce collective and land.

 

Once down I apply the wheel brake and reduce the throttle down and re-set the trimmers. This stops the chopper from wanting to go anywhere. Once your settled you can bring the throttle back up to automatic.

 

The above is probably all against operating procedure, but it's how I do it and I don't think I have have ever had a major problem.

 

Thanks for these tips. Oh and I tried the way Geier described it, I died very quickly. FYI my landings have improved, I guess I'm able to safely land this sucker 90% of the time.

 

 

Greetzz

[Frederf]

Ahh ok, I was wondering how you manage the throttles in a KA50 without taking you hand of the collective in real life.

 

There's a collective brake/ altitude assign level so you can hands off the collective to do other stuff without it changing. (F key) It also is used to assign altitude for the FD mode.

 

So it looks like below auto throttles is a tricky descent maneuver to prevent overspeed, although these are Mi-24 tricks yes? Does the Mi-24 not have the low-RPM governor mode like the Ka-50? Maybe the low setting is something they added to the Ka-50 design for just this reason. I also think we can safely say that while one might use low throttle for fast descents, one still wouldn't use it for the actual landing.

[EvilBivol-1]

Anyway, this "maple leaf" thing is becoming clear to me now. For most of the war, helicopters flew nice and high to stay out of gun range. Once they arrived at their destination, they were typically still very high, unless they spent a lot of time descending (and getting back into small arms range before they arrived at a secure area). So to lose all of that altitude, they would spiral down in a 30m/s descent. In this case, they would absolutely need to lower the throttle to avoid overspeeding the rotor.

Although not a helicopter, here's a great example of this approach, only on the way up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kfs5R5Qask&feature=channel_page

[Airway]

What is it that popped out of the plane around 1:20?

 

Can't be flares, can it? :huh:

[EvilBivol-1]

Yup, flares. MANPAD ambushes were not uncommon around the airbases. Happened in Chechnya as well. Good luck finding a guy who launched a MANPAD at you from the middle of a city.

[Airway]

Already at that time? Thought this was a newer, maybe only 10 year old threat. :huh:

I thing I still have to learn a lot and found a good place here, to learn.

[Geier]

Very nice! That's my job title, too! I'm an Mi-17 crew chief (flight mechanic) in A-stan. (Except I'm American, oh how times change.)

 

Thanks for posting the link for the page, even though I have to have it translated, it's a good read.

 

Anyway, this "maple leaf" thing is becoming clear to me now. For most of the war, helicopters flew nice and high to stay out of gun range. Once they arrived at their destination, they were typically still very high, unless they spent a lot of time descending (and getting back into small arms range before they arrived at a secure area). So to lose all of that altitude, they would spiral down in a 30m/s descent. In this case, they would absolutely need to lower the throttle to avoid overspeeding the rotor.

 

Of course, they didn't land the aircraft at a 30m/s descent, they would come out of their "mape leaf" descent with several hundred feet to go until landing, and when they come out of their descent, they increase the throttles back to AUTO.

 

Yes. All our planes use this type of landing there: attack planes, transport, helos etc.

It's needed because of AAA, I guess you know:)

 

And what the trick do you use (of course if it's not a secret) in these very cases?

[Geier]

Yup, flares. MANPAD ambushes were not uncommon around the airbases. Happened in Chechnya as well. Good luck finding a guy who launched a MANPAD at you from the middle of a city.

 

Not always! Remember the case with s.lt Pavlyikov who was hit exactly by MANPAD near the Bagram AFB. His flight continued only 2 min 32 s.

[AlphaOneSix]

And what the trick do you use (of course if it's not a secret) in these very cases?

 

We just don't fly during the day.

[hoorah]

Ahh ok, I was wondering how you manage the throttles in a KA50 without taking you hand of the collective in real life.

 

Alot of helo pilots will also "pin" the collective by pushing their leg against it. That way if a brake or trim sensor fails, they will feel it move against there leg.

Edited January 5, 2009 by hoorah
spelling