The Hind and the AP channels.

[Galm1]

I agree.  Whatever they did with this last patch was terrible.  I'm literally giving it full right pedal and the AP is keeping me "coordinated" at a hover.  I can't pedal turn and it's miserable.

 

Just tried it again, and yah, if I give it right pedal at a hover, it will start to turn right, but then the AP will "correct" my pedals and move them back to neutral.  I can continue this all the way up to full right pedal and the AP will still keep my in-game pedals centered.  If I disengage the AP while these shenanigans are happening, then it seems to permanently "trim" my in-game pedals to whatever position they were at when AP was disengaged.  Seems like the only way to make this thing flyable right now is to just never engage the Yaw AP and sacrifice any damping/assist.

 

And I'm not sure whether or not to report this as a bug because since it's listed on the Changelog, I can only assume that's it's working as intended and just nobody decided to actually try to fly the thing before pushing out the update.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Galm1

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, Galm1 said:

I agree.  Whatever they did with this last patch was terrible.  I'm literally giving it full right pedal and the AP is keeping me "coordinated" at a hover.  I can't pedal turn and it's miserable.

 

Just tried it again, and yah, if I give it right pedal at a hover, it will start to turn right, but then the AP will "correct" my pedals and move them back to neutral.  I can continue this all the way up to full right pedal and the AP will still keep my in-game pedals centered.  If I disengage the AP while these shenanigans are happening, then it seems to permanently "trim" my in-game pedals to whatever position they were at when AP was disengaged.  Seems like the only way to make this thing flyable right now is to just never engage the Yaw AP and sacrifice any damping/assist.

 

And I'm not sure whether or not to report this as a bug because since it's listed on the Changelog, I can only assume that's it's working as intended and just nobody decided to actually try to fly the thing before pushing out the update.

 

It is a realistic feature, and was in the module until the MicroSwitch feature a few months ago, same features is in Mi-8.

If you notice it only happens when Yaw AP is in Heading Hold mode and reaches its limit. The AP uses the hydraulic damper in the pedals to move them. 
 

If you have your micro switches pressed or have your setting so as to disable heading hold mode, it will not do this becuase the Yaw AP will be in Dampening/Stabilization mode, which is the primary mode intended to fly in, as the micro switches are pressed whenever feet are on the pedals 

[Galm1]

34 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

It is a realistic feature, and was in the module until the MicroSwitch feature a few months ago, same features is in Mi-8.

If you notice it only happens when Yaw AP is in Heading Hold mode and reaches its limit. The AP uses the hydraulic damper in the pedals to move them. 
 

If you have your micro switches pressed or have your setting so as to disable heading hold mode, it will not do this becuase the Yaw AP will be in Dampening/Stabilization mode, which is the primary mode intended to fly in, as the micro switches are pressed whenever feet are on the pedals 

I appreciate the help, but do you know what to set my special setting to in order to default the heading hold to off (if there is one)?  I've tried using the button and that's just cumbersome, and using the different pedal movement options are workable, but they always wind up throwing my pedals out of trim (I don't want ANY pedal trim).  If possible I'd perhaps like a toggle option to swap between heading hold and damper.  I'm not able to speak on the realism of this change, but I can say for sure that until I can find some work-around, it's made my favorite heli module virtually unflyable.

[admiki]

19 minutes ago, Galm1 said:

I appreciate the help, but do you know what to set my special setting to in order to default the heading hold to off (if there is one)?  I've tried using the button and that's just cumbersome, and using the different pedal movement options are workable, but they always wind up throwing my pedals out of trim (I don't want ANY pedal trim).  If possible I'd perhaps like a toggle option to swap between heading hold and damper.  I'm not able to speak on the realism of this change, but I can say for sure that until I can find some work-around, it's made my favorite heli module virtually unflyable.

Only 2 options to disable heading hold mode and not have game/physical pedals mismatch is to either turn yaw AP channel off or to hold microswitch button. I never used yaw AP until we got microswitches, after that happened I would ocassionaly tap Y button. Now, I use 3rd party program to toggle that button on/off, so heading hold is always off.

How it works IRL is that those microswitches are built into pedals, and just putting your feet on them would activate it and disable heading hold.

TBH, unless you are trying to shoot at something while hovering or at really low airspeed, yaw dampening isn't really needed IMO.

Edited September 22, 2022 by admiki

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, Galm1 said:

I appreciate the help, but do you know what to set my special setting to in order to default the heading hold to off (if there is one)?  I've tried using the button and that's just cumbersome, and using the different pedal movement options are workable, but they always wind up throwing my pedals out of trim (I don't want ANY pedal trim).  If possible I'd perhaps like a toggle option to swap between heading hold and damper.  I'm not able to speak on the realism of this change, but I can say for sure that until I can find some work-around, it's made my favorite heli module virtually unflyable.

Here are my settings. Basically the Y/MicroSwitch binding will do it’s job now matter what special settings you have selected. “Automatic Off” is complete manual control but defaults to heading hold, so before take off I just flip my switch bound to Y/Microswitches to make sure they are on (you will see yaw channel center since as long as you are still it won’t do anything). Some people don’t have a switch to use for it I get it. 
 

As Admiki said, it’s use is greatest at slower speeds. And at higher speeds starts to make a smaller amd smaller difference. I still like it at full cruise speeds becuase it makes it fly smoother and more accurate with unguided weapons, but to each their own 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Galm1]

Much appreciated fellas.  Unfortunately I'm one of those that don't have a switch on my HOTAS to bind.  I guess I'll just go back to flying the way I did back when the module launched and fly with the yaw channel turned off.

[admiki]

7 hours ago, Galm1 said:

Much appreciated fellas.  Unfortunately I'm one of those that don't have a switch on my HOTAS to bind.  I guess I'll just go back to flying the way I did back when the module launched and fly with the yaw channel turned off.

Use 3rd party program to toggle Y bind. I use Joystick Gremlin

[Hiob]

13 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Here are my settings. Basically the Y/MicroSwitch binding will do it’s job now matter what special settings you have selected. “Automatic Off” is complete manual control but defaults to heading hold, so before take off I just flip my switch bound to Y/Microswitches to make sure they are on (you will see yaw channel center since as long as you are still it won’t do anything). Some people don’t have a switch to use for it I get it. 
 

As Admiki said, it’s use is greatest at slower speeds. And at higher speeds starts to make a smaller amd smaller difference. I still like it at full cruise speeds becuase it makes it fly smoother and more accurate with unguided weapons, but to each their own 

 

 

Do you use spring loaded pedals or springless ones for flying helicopters? (Sorry if that was answered earlier, I haven't read the whole thread).

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, Hiob said:

Do you use spring loaded pedals or springless ones for flying helicopters? (Sorry if that was answered earlier, I haven't read the whole thread).

I use MFG with dampener and spring on lowest setting possible. 
 

Why? When I had CH pedals I still wouldn’t have any different settings. I cannot stand the “disable microswitches by return to center” mode becuase when turning left your pedals are often centered and thus it tries to hold heading and auto trim you and fight you and screw you up. So in my opinion you either keep it off except when heading hold is needed in DCS, or keep it in automatic off setting and keep microswitches/Y constantly pressed, just like they are on real life when pilots have their feet on the pedals which holds the micro switches down 

Edited September 23, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Nevyn]

Ok make sense now whats going on, thanks Aeria, wish I read this before I left a comment in the bug section. I will play around with it and see which way I am going to deal with it.

[Hiob]

2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

I use MFG with dampener and spring on lowest setting possible. 
 

Why? When I had CH pedals I still wouldn’t have any different settings. I cannot stand the “disable microswitches by return to center” mode becuase when turning left your pedals are often centered and thus it tries to hold heading and auto trim you and fight you and screw you up. So in my opinion you either keep it off except when heading hold is needed in DCS, or keep it in automatic off setting and keep microswitches/Y constantly pressed, just like they are on real life when pilots have their feet on the pedals which holds the micro switches down 

 

That was why I asked. Because I use MFGs with a quick release for the spring and fly helos completely without recentering force on the pedals. Therefore I have no use for any kind of pedal trim and never experienced any issues with the yaw behavior of the hind. (I couldn’t test the newest iteration though due to a cable failure that rendered my pedals useless for the moment).

I‘m still trying to understand, which combination of special options settings and physical input device configuration leads to the problems that seemingly exists for some.

Edit: …and I still fail to understand the differences between hip and hind in that regard.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Hiob

[admiki]

6 minutes ago, Hiob said:

That was why I asked. Because I use MFGs with a quick release for the spring and fly helos completely without recentering force on the pedals. Therefore I have no use for any kind of pedal trim and never experienced any issues with the yaw behavior of the hind. (I couldn’t test the newest iteration though due to a cable failure that rendered my pedals useless for the moment).

I‘m still trying to understand, which combination of special options settings and physical input device configuration leads to the problems that seemingly exists for some.

Edit: …and I still fail to understand the differences between hip and hind in that regard.

 

If you turn on yaw AP, and don't have microswitches activated, Hind AP will move pedals on its own to keep initial heading. You can't avoid that via special settings options. 

You don't use yaw AP in Hip unless you are in cruise and want heading hold. Hind yaw AP is on all the time, since it also serves as dampening system, same as for roll&pitch. Hip yaw AP is heading mode only.

If you activate yaw AP in Hip, it behaves exactly the same as Hind yaw AP without microswitches activated. It will move pedals as needed to keep you on selected heading (selected as in heading you had when you activated AP)

 

[Hiob]

18 minutes ago, admiki said:

If you turn on yaw AP, and don't have microswitches activated, Hind AP will move pedals on its own to keep initial heading. You can't avoid that via special settings options. 

You don't use yaw AP in Hip unless you are in cruise and want heading hold. Hind yaw AP is on all the time, since it also serves as dampening system, same as for roll&pitch. Hip yaw AP is heading mode only.

If you activate yaw AP in Hip, it behaves exactly the same as Hind yaw AP without microswitches activated. It will move pedals as needed to keep you on selected heading (selected as in heading you had when you activated AP)

 

Ok, thank you for the explanation. I will try it when my effing pedals work again……

[admiki]

28 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Ok, thank you for the explanation. I will try it when my effing pedals work again……

What cable failed? If it's main cable to PC, just go out and buy printer cable

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, admiki said:

What cable failed? If it's main cable to PC, just go out and buy printer cable

Haha, well thank you - I know how to replace an USB-cable. Problem is that the pedals are build into a moveable „flying chair“ (together with a seat and the controls column) and it‘s a hassle to exchange the cable because of the way it is laid. But that‘s off topic and would go too far to explain the details. It‘s just a major annoyance not a real problem. 

[AeriaGloria]

15 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Haha, well thank you - I know how to replace an USB-cable. Problem is that the pedals are build into a moveable „flying chair“ (together with a seat and the controls column) and it‘s a hassle to exchange the cable because of the way it is laid. But that‘s off topic and would go too far to explain the details. It‘s just a major annoyance not a real problem. 

These are my special settings. This way with MicroSwitch in “automatic off” it defaults to heading hold and I have complete manual control of Yaw AP mode. I use the MicroSwitch/Y key bound to a switch to keep them pressed the entire flight so it stays in dampening mode. Since controls don’t sync with cockpit until you move them, I flip the switch from off to back on to make sure the Yaw AP is in dampening mode and not heading hold. 
 

The microswitches are in the pedals, so in flight they are constantly pressed whenever feet are on pedals. You can read my updated yaw autopilot guide for more detailed info, I just updated it to comply with newest update https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m_BGfhSZkQB2WToh3CTRbdIFqYuPtMFc/view?usp=drivesdk

[Hiob]

Cool, thanks! I think the picture is complete now. I wonder why I never felt any problems in the past, but I can’t even say for sure if I had AP yaw channel activated. The special options menu looks very different from what I remember when I last looked into it.

Regarding the sync of controls - I think that is working now when you check the option. But doing a proper „checklist“ on them before jumping into the cockpit is good practice anyway.

Anyway I‘m freshly motivated to fly the Hind again!  (though my first and true love will always be the Hip )

[christopher m]

Just wanted to sign in and input my Gratitude for AeriaGloria  and Chuck's GUIDE's without whom i would be sorely loosing out

on my enjoyment of this Magnificent bird.

i am very attracted to scruffy old birds, and not very excited by shiny new flat screen flying toy's

and this bird is one of the scruffiest of the bunch

this latest update with the 100% authority on the Heading Keeper AP had me flummoxed a little until i read the information in this AP thread

THNX all for the great info

Peddles Trim-OFF and Micro-Switches Automatic-Off and programmed a TOGGLE SWITCH as NORMAL mode on my THROTTLE (virpil)

and now i'm flying with the BiG DoG's

Edited September 25, 2022 by christopher m
added

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

I'm using a joystick without centering springs (Winwing F-16 ?Orion2 with damping kit) and Crosswind rudder pedals with damper and with centering spring disconnected. What settings should I use? I don't really need force trim with this set-up but still would like to be able to use the AP dampening as well as en-route and hover hold. 

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

I'm using a joystick without centering springs (Winwing F-16 ?Orion2 with damping kit) and Crosswind rudder pedals with damper and with centering spring disconnected. What settings should I use? I don't really need force trim with this set-up but still would like to be able to use the AP dampening as well as en-route and hover hold. 

You should still use trim button to reset and update AP to hold current attitude. I was just use instant trim, pedal trim at your preference. To have constant Yaw AP dampening you need to set MicroSwitch settings as “Automatic Off” and set the Y key “Yaw channel Align ON/OFF” to a switch or something that will hold It in the on position. 
 

 

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

 and set the Y key “Yaw channel Align ON/OFF” to a switch or something that will hold It in the on position. 
 

 

There is still a question mark for me, since there is no visual feedback. Normally (or sometimes) I have the two different bindings for the on and off position which allows me to bind them to a two position switch. In this case I‘m not sure how it works. Is it „alternate with each depress“ or „on whilst depressed“?

[cow_art]

4 minutes ago, Hiob said:

There is still a question mark for me, since there is no visual feedback. Normally (or sometimes) I have the two different bindings for the on and off position which allows me to bind them to a two position switch. In this case I‘m not sure how it works. Is it „alternate with each depress“ or „on whilst depressed“?

Yes it's not very intuitive at the moment. I think it's  "pedal microswitches are ON while you hold the Y  key". The effects are easiest to see when you look at the control helper in the upper right corner: The yaw AP will go into damping mode while the Y key is held down. If Y key is not held, the AP is in heading hold mode (and will aggressively change the pedal trim position).

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, cow_art said:

Yes it's not very intuitive at the moment. I think it's  "pedal microswitches are ON while you hold the Y  key". The effects are easiest to see when you look at the control helper in the upper right corner: The yaw AP will go into damping mode while the Y key is held down. If Y key is not held, the AP is in heading hold mode (and will aggressively change the pedal trim position).

Is there a setting that allows microswitches to be always on without the use of 3rd party software?

[cow_art]

Just now, Lurker said:

Is there a setting that allows microswitches to be always on without the use of 3rd party software?

That would be cool, but I don't think so. If it exists, I have not found it yet

[Hiob]

4 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Is there a setting that allows microswitches to be always on without the use of 3rd party software?

Isn’t that what we are talking about here? When you bind that to a two-position switch (not a momentary switch) and make your ingame controls synchronized with the physical it will stay on. At least, that‘s what I understood….