Appropriate weapon for Libyan and Egyptian MiG21s

[Gunfreak]

In the time period 1977 to 1985?

Both air to air and air to ground. 

[Stratos]

On 8/29/2022 at 8:57 PM, Gunfreak said:

In the time period 1977 to 1985?

Both air to air and air to ground. 

You should ask on Acig.info Tom Cooper will be able to help.

But out of my mind I vote for R2S for both sides, maybe some M versions as well, but no R60. For A-G the full weapons available for the MiG.

[303_Kermit]

Mostly used variant of MiG-21 in Syria, Egipt and Iraq was FL. It's India built PFM-isch MiG-21. Please note a 4 pylons and no integral gun. Also much weaker engine than the one in bis.



Originally in they carried R-3S.
Iraq -modified their planes to carry Matra 550 Magic
Syria - lost dozens of their MiG-21 to Israeli F-15, Kfir's, Mirage III
Egipt - rather bought MiG-23MS (downgraded MiG-23 with R-3S missiles and a radar RP-22 Almaz(sometimes called Sphire in various sources) from MiG-21bis.

A2G - everything except Grom missile.

and of course - no cannon

Edited November 21, 2022 by 303_Kermit

[Bremspropeller]

That picture is a Bis airframe with the Bison upgrade. The internal gun is clearly visible.

The FL actually predates the PFM an PFS (no SPS/ BLC on the FL!). The early FLs had the narrower "F-13 style" vertical tail according to some sources. I haven't been able to find an indian FL with the narrow tail so far. They did recieve a small number of PFs, which might be the source of some confusion with some authors. Later FLs could carry the draggy GP-9 gunpod to blast bullets downrange, negating exterior tank capability on the centerline store.

This is what the vanilla FL looked like towards the end of it's carreer:

Note the short extended spine and fwd opening canopy, hence the early and somewhat lacking SK seat. There's no gunpod on this airframe and all the FLs retained the two wing-pylons. Some additional research shows that at least some FLs were re-pyloned to a total of four (five with the CL pylon).

Edited November 22, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Bananabrai]

Did the Syrian MiG-21 during that time also had no canons?

SPS was the jammer, correct?

[Bremspropeller]

SPS is BLC (Boundary Layer Control) which enables greater flap-angles and hence slower approach speeds. Not sure if jammers were even a thing with the earlier 21s.

The FLs, PFs and early PFMs didn't have internal guns. Only the later(?) PFM had a modification that allowed carriage of the GP-9 gunpod (SPS-K* in the East German Air Force). Not sure if the PF, PFS and erlier PFMs ever were retrofitted, but I guess those were just sidelined and newer models replaced them at the front-lines. EGAF flew SPS and SPS-Ks until 1990.

 

____

*The PFM was called SPS in the EGAF, as they had already called their slightly upgradaed PFs "PFMs", hence they had to come up with a new name.

[Hiromachi]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:55 AM, 303_Kermit said:

Mostly used variant of MiG-21 in Syria, Egipt and Iraq was FL

Ugh, thats not really true. It never exceeded the numbers of PFMs, PFS or MF in any of the mentioned countries during 1967 war, War of attrition or 1973 war. 

Iraq for example received only 20 MiG-21FLs in 1966. In 1967 they already received 36 brand new PFMs and in 1971 further 20 MFs. Not to mention some 48 MiG-21bis delivered between 1979 and 1983. I think Iraq had even more Hawker Hunters than MiG-21FLs.

That wouldn't be true for Egypt either, especially since immediately after 1967 war, Soviet Union decided to rapidly send 65 of their PFS to restore some of the Egyptian Air Force capabilities, which was virtually annihilated. Finally, Syrian Ordre de bataille as of October 1973, indicates that most common variant were PFMs and MFs.

Note: all the above numbers are rounded for the purposes of quick search and based on slightly dated, but still likely some of the most accurate, publications:

- Arab MiGs. Volume 5: October 1973 War, Part 1,

- Iraqi Fighters: 1953-2003: Camouflage & Markings

9 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

I haven't been able to find an indian FL with the narrow tail so far.

Voila

FLs are easy to distinguish as they had no SRO antennas.

5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

The FLs, PFs and early PFMs didn't have internal guns. Only the later(?) PFM had a modification that allowed carriage of the GP-9 gunpod (SPS-K* in the East German Air Force). Not sure if the PF, PFS and erlier PFMs ever were retrofitted, but I guess those were just sidelined and newer models replaced them at the front-lines.

Poland kept 21PF in service until 1989. And they were retrofitted with GP-9 as picture below shows:

 

Polish PFs were modernized since the time of their arrival in 1964 / 1965, by replacement of RP-21 blocks with RP-21M, installation of SBKO-E blocks for identification control and couple other things like installation of the hook under the airframe to attach the mentioned GP-9 pod.

[Bremspropeller]

Great info, thanks Hiromachi!

 

[Stratos]

1 hour ago, Hiromachi said:

 

Voila

IRIAF MiG?

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, Stratos said:

IRIAF MiG?

It might be a former EGAF PF which was going to be exported to Iran when the deal was cancelled due to the german reunification. The camo-scheme does fit the bill very well.

IRIAF never flew PFs or FLs, unless some iraqi aircraft have made th run for Iran.

 

Shouldn't all FLs have their brake-chute housing at the base of the fin, as opposed to at the ventral fin as this one?

[Hiromachi]

11 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Shouldn't all FLs have their brake-chute housing at the base of the fin, as opposed to at the ventral fin as this one?

If it has thin keel than no. 

[303_Kermit]

18 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

Ugh, thats not really true. It never exceeded the numbers of PFMs, PFS or MF in any of the mentioned countries during 1967 war, War of attrition or 1973 war. 

Iraq for example received only 20 MiG-21FLs in 1966. In 1967 they already received 36 brand new PFMs and in 1971 further 20 MFs. Not to mention some 48 MiG-21bis delivered between 1979 and 1983. I think Iraq had even more Hawker Hunters than MiG-21FLs.

That wouldn't be true for Egypt either, especially since immediately after 1967 war, Soviet Union decided to rapidly send 65 of their PFS to restore some of the Egyptian Air Force capabilities, which was virtually annihilated. Finally, Syrian Ordre de bataille as of October 1973, indicates that most common variant were PFMs and MFs.

Note: all the above numbers are rounded for the purposes of quick search and based on slightly dated, but still likely some of the most accurate, publications:

- Arab MiGs. Volume 5: October 1973 War, Part 1,

- Iraqi Fighters: 1953-2003: Camouflage & Markings

Voila

FLs are easy to distinguish as they had no SRO antennas.

Poland kept 21PF in service until 1989. And they were retrofitted with GP-9 as picture below shows:

 

Polish PFs were modernized since the time of their arrival in 1964 / 1965, by replacement of RP-21 blocks with RP-21M, installation of SBKO-E blocks for identification control and couple other things like installation of the hook under the airframe to attach the mentioned GP-9 pod.

Egypt become in 1965 45 to 50 MiG-21 FL. Syria in 1961 become 36 F-13 and around 15 FL, Iraq become around 60 MiG-21 F-13 in 1963-66. in '66 Iraq ordered 60 more "PF". They are described as inferior to our bis in various ways. "R-2L Spin scan radar was not operational at speeds over Ma =1.2 because of cooling system". After 6 day war Egypt ordered a number of PFS, in late '69 Egipt started to become MF (110 according to some sources) and PFM (SPS). I found also an information about some bis in Egipt, but with annotation, that they were flown by russian pilots.

Colleague asked about weapon mostly used. I answered. He didn't asked about structure of arab Air forces, but about wapon used on them. Your answer is wery precise and surely all you wrote is precise truth, but I belive.... You missed the subject

With my regards

Source: "Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in combat"

Edited November 23, 2022 by 303_Kermit

[Bozon]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:21 PM, Bremspropeller said:

SPS is BLC (Boundary Layer Control) which enables greater flap-angles and hence slower approach speeds. Not sure if jammers were even a thing with the earlier 21s.

Syrian Mig-21s had some sort of forward-emitting jammers in 1982. From what I’ve heard they worked pretty well on the AIM-7 (don’t know the exact type) from Israeli F-15s. No official source for that, just word of mouth from people who were involved on the Israeli side.

Of course it may be just an excuse why many AIM-7s missed.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Bozon

[Hiromachi]

The only jammers MiG-21 could have, would be the SPS-141 / 142 / 143 in SM-1 container (the entire pod should properly be called SM-1, SPS jamming station was merely a part of it along with ASO-2 chaff and flare dispensers). And according to Soviet, Polish and DDR manuals I have for MiG-21PF / PFM / SPS from the 1980s they also could be equipped with SM-1 jamming pods.

[Stratos]

And it works as a jammer in DCS?