fixed internally Bomber gunners do not shoot enemies when close

[EnvyC]

Hi.

While looking for potential fixes to an issue on 4YA's WW2 server I came across this strange phenomenon. When you get too close to enemies they will cease fire and in some cases forget you're there entirely. You can fly formation right in the center of a combat box and the bombers will refuse to fire at you. Not only that at many angles the bombers won't even use their full arsenal to shoot at you. Attached is a video showing the issue, with commentary, and I have attached two tracks and the scenario itself.

There is an argument to be made that this is intentional as to prevent fratricide but the extent of this issue seems far far too extreme. If all the LW had to do was sit right in the middle of a formation they'd have absolutely ruined the concept of daylight bombing. Not only that, the degree to which the AI can't hit a stationary target is a bit suspect as well as per the A20 footage.

 

test 1.trk test 2.trk Bomber gunner test.miz

Edited September 13, 2022 by EnvyC

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

@EnvyC  Great video.  Show the issue perfectly.

I just wanted you to know it has been reported now.  I thought Nineline was going to merge your post in too, but maybe because I linked your video he didn't.  Just wanted to give you a heads up.

cheers.

  

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[NineLine]

This is fixed internally now, I am not sure about starting an air start right next to a bomber, but you should not be able to casually fly up right next to a bomber without getting shot up. I hope to see the fix in the next patch. 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

This is fixed internally now, I am not sure about starting an air start right next to a bomber, but you should not be able to casually fly up right next to a bomber without getting shot up. I hope to see the fix in the next patch. 

 

Nineline,

The only reason I set that test up was because I had seen that behavior in a normal mission attack.

Those missions were designed to reproduce the behavior one gun at a time in a controlled and completely repeatable manner for analysis.

Which they did, unless you are saying that is a separate bug that this patch isn't fixing.  Else it's the same bug no matter how you record it.

Thanks for your help.

 

[J13 Serenity]

Hello

I know, that the previous topic about this issue was closed, and, apparently, developers are trying to solve the problem.
But I would like to add more Tracks and Tacview, in case that can be useful.
Feel free to delete this topic, if the gunner problem, is solved already

In our DCS community, we are flying an dynamic multiplayer PvP Campaign in a Battle of Britain setting.
I am not a programmer or a WW2 air warfare expert. 
But the AI bomber losses in our multiplayer campaign are massive!
Is particular Ju88, are very easy to shoot down and almost never fire back with their gunners.
For example, is the tacview and track, you can see, that when in formation, only one, very rarely two Ju 88 gunners would ever fire.
They fire very randomly. Often fire very long but inaccurate bursts.
There is an instance on the tacview, where Ju 88 gunner ignored an Spitfire at 500 meters on its six, but did fire at another spitfire 2300m away!
Also, I don't know why, but Ju 88 "feel" squishy, and catch fire almost anytime a 20mm shell lands on its fuselage or wings.
May be that's realistic, may be not. 
Our impression, that 20 hispano does much more damage to Ju 88 than Bf109 or FW190...
 Its all emotional, of course.
But out of all aircraft simulators I've played, In DCS Ju 88 are the most fragile of all.
Combine that with passive gunners, and you get situations,where Spitfire hangs on a tail of 16 Ju 88 and shoots them one after another with no risk to itself.

Me and my friends are begging you (developers) to fix this issue, so we can enjoy WW2 DCS even more.

Thank you! 

Here are the links to the server track and server Tacview:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YedVG-lUOMW_xhk4zMZbUh_1qWfgX7oM/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XO3XOyjkj5kWS58Iay-UbOoigMd5jBWj/view?usp=sharing

[J13 Serenity]

Here is another set of a Server Tacview and a Server track:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t6R4cMeW9YeVsWxTY8THwk8nCyYSdg91/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Tg10DSpaVJ7bJzZPaSPOAkMPpurTakGT/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/159GcUl1EfVdckAgjOT6H-at3yGRa9NoN/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_9Z2FyyLKt5_Y8-G1vLhEmSjtRFXmlzh/view?usp=sharing

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

You are not imagining things.  You are not doing it wrong.

It's apparently already fixed internally.

It should come out soon with one of the patches hopefully.  

[EnvyC]

On 7/5/2023 at 5:25 AM, NineLine said:

This is fixed internally now, I am not sure about starting an air start right next to a bomber, but you should not be able to casually fly up right next to a bomber without getting shot up. I hope to see the fix in the next patch. 

Thank you for the news.

[J13 Serenity]

Hi

No change to Ai gunners in the recent patch, apparently...

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

1 hour ago, J13 Serenity said:

Hi

No change to Ai gunners in the recent patch, apparently...

 

Nope.  I guess this last patch was too far along to throw something in.

 

 

[NineLine]

Yes, its possible it didnt make it in, sorry. 

[NineLine]

Actually, just ran a quick test and seems to be better. If you are seeing an issue still send me a new track and mission. 

[J13 Serenity]

Hi

Its kind of funny, how many of my friends are saying the same

" it SEEMS better, but I am not sure..."
If there are any changes, they are so subtle, that its hard to tell

I ran some tests myself:
1. A Youtube Video of me creating a mission and trying to attack Ju88 on a Spitfire
2. I made changes to Ju88 AI (try to mix them up with some rookie, ace etc...)
3. Both tracks are attached

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the gunners should function almost like an AA battery, fire at the target continuously in order to saturate the area with bullets and if not damage the enemy fighter, at least make it maneuver and evade, and make his attacks more difficult.
In DCS, gunners fire at relatively short distances and very seldom
In case of a formation, only 1-2 will fire at the same time.
Also, in the second test, you will see a typical bug with the gunner, when it starts to fire all of its ammo at some point behind the Bomber
It happens regularly in my tests.
I had examples, when three out of four bombers spent all of their MG ammo like that...

Anyway, from my perspective the AI gunners are still very bugged and almost useless, especially in bomber formations.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W0isTrbifoTDe-rsDCsRYjMiiA8XOHjA/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZY6XWXj0EtUxdmVkPyfRBY4RrJktBvuP/view?usp=sharing

Here is a quote from some article I found online:
The size of the heavy bombers and their formations could not be adequately described to a green pilot; they had to be experienced first-hand… The bomber gunners opened fire as soon as a target was seen, in order to disrupt or ward off attacks. The Americans’ browning .50 inch machine guns had a higher muzzle velocity and a greater range than the Germans MG 17s whose tracers were used to site their MG 151 cannon. So, the fighter pilots’ cockpits were surrounded by red tracers, “Swarming like wasps” in Karl Borris’s words, long before they themselves could open fire effectively; and because of low closing speeds, this extremely uncomfortable situation could continue for several minutes…some pilots would invariably break away prematurely, and the rest would pass through the bomber formation at whatever angle and orientation promised the best chance of survival.’

Many Soviet, British and American Memoirs tell similar stories.
But in DCS right now, as you might see in a video, you can often fly formation with AI bombers and feel pretty safe.
 

Edited July 27, 2023 by J13 Serenity

[NineLine]

I'm not so sure on this, the gun coverage on the Ju-88 is not great. Its was considered quite inadequate as well. The lower the number in the formation, the worse this will make it as well. The zones they cant cover would be and are quite large. 

If bombers were so efficient there would have been no need for escort fighters and we know escort fighters were very important.

Most claimed bomber kills were mistaken claims or more than one bomber would claim the same kill.

I find that if you fly in the area the gun can reach and closer to the bomber they will fire and fire a lot, but they should not be crazy accurate either. Look at the top guns on the Ju-88, there is not a ton of movement there, as with all the others. 

I don't agree that gunners should operate like AA, they would run out of ammo pretty fast if they set up a barrage anytime they saw a fighter. 

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Had to redo my first test.  

So I'm not seeing any improvement with the B17 @NineLine.

Chin and tail gunner are adequate (barely).

Waist gunner will occasionally shoot.  Horribly bad aim.

Top and belly refuse to shoot 99.999996% of the time.

(see attached.)

 

HD may still be processing...(I'm pretty sure it was the chin gun there at the last that squirted a round.  Should be in the trk.)

 

b17testgun.trk gunfixtest.miz

Edited July 27, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[J13 Serenity]

Well

I can't argue about Gunners efficiency, since I don't have any respectable data or statistics on that one

But the "Fire all ammo at some point in the sky" bug is obvious.
Also, the inconsistencies with how they fire or not fire are obvious (to me at least) as well.

Its hard to describe, because Its hard to compare different cases.
For example, last PvP mission we had, Ju 88 gunners that would fire very vigorously at certain players, and completely ignore others.

Some of my friends said that the developers should swap BMP and BTR AI with the Ju 88 gunners...

Something is not right with these gunners
Like if there is a visibility bug for gunners, or their target selection or something else.
Like if there is some kind of random present, or its just bugged and doesn't work as intended.
Or, maybe, it does work as intended.
Long time ago, I made a mission, where Mig 15 had to intercept a swarm of B17.
B 17 gunners would fire a lot, Mig 15 would almost always get some kind of damage if too close and low angle velocity
But due to the amount of bullets flying, the FPS would drop and server would start lagging.
I had to remove ammo from every third or even every second B17 to keep the frame rate high.
May be this Gunners behaviour was an answer to that problem?
Make gunners fire less, so people stop complaining about low FPS?

Its time for a conspiracy theory


 

Edited July 28, 2023 by J13 Serenity

[NineLine]

10 hours ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

Had to redo my first test.  

So I'm not seeing any improvement with the B17 @NineLine.

Chin and tail gunner are adequate (barely).

Waist gunner will occasionally shoot.  Horribly bad aim.

Top and belly refuse to shoot 99.999996% of the time.

(see attached.)

 

HD may still be processing...(I'm pretty sure it was the chin gun there at the last that squirted a round.  Should be in the trk.)

 

b17testgun.trk 1.56 MB · 0 downloads gunfixtest.miz 9.52 kB · 0 downloads

 

The report is not closed internally so its possible the fix is not in. My comments above were more about the Ju-88 in general.

1 hour ago, J13 Serenity said:

May be this Gunners behaviour was an answer to that problem?
Make gunners fire less, so people stop complaining about low FPS?

I do not believe so, more they were way too accurate back in the day it was tuned down. I have yet to check the B-17 yet in OB, but it should be somewhat better than the Ju-88.

Quote

B 17 gunners would fire a lot, Mig 15 would almost always get some kind of damage if too close and low angle velocity
But due to the amount of bullets flying, the FPS would drop and server would start lagging.

Yes, that was an issue, there was almost 0 chance no matter how fast you flew or how you passed them that you wouldn't come away with serious damage, with the new Damage model it was even worse, the gunners were unrealistic in the ability to pick up and track targets, even fast-moving and jinking ones. 

[NineLine]

 

Quick and dirty B-17 test with belly gunners. 

 

10 hours ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

Waist gunner will occasionally shoot.  Horribly bad aim.

Well, those guns were and are not easy to fire, let alone track. Let's be real here. They were not working in ideal conditions.

 

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

8 hours ago, NineLine said:

 

Quick and dirty B-17 test with belly gunners. 

 

 

@NineLine I think I see the difference.

 

Notice on my film I am NOT just crawling up from dead 6.  I would never choose to attack like that.  Lowest survival probability approach.  Experienced interceptors would never attack like that.  I always using side slashing attacks from above or below to present the highest deflection shot possible for the gunners.  I would ONLY approach from dead six if I thought the gunners were dead or out of ammo.  Otherwise, that would just be dumb.

 

Try like mine, where you start out at about 1000yd line abreast and then make slashing approaches from the side instead of trying to just crawl up their six.  

 

Watch my film.  I am never just crawling up their six.  My normal attack would be an oblique slash attack from above or below.  When attacked with oblique slashing attacks like in this video, the top and belly gunner refuse to shoot 99.999999996% of the time.  Attack like I do in my video and post the film please.

 

*****My guess is this is a code cheat to avoid the difficultly of avoiding hitting the other buffs in formation.  Rather than do that calculation, the hack is to simply restrict the fire to a narrow cone of fire dead six or dead 12.  Which is why the chin and tail gunners fire most often.  If the buffs are staggered in height in formation, dead six and dead 12 would be safe cones of fire.  From the side, well that is hard to calc so just don't shoot.

But once you know that, they are helpless.

 

If that is the case, I'd rather them shoot and just have a hack that buffs are invulnerable to rounds from other buffs.  That would be better than them refusing to shoot at all.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[NineLine]

The point of my video was to show the gunners are working, not to show you how to attack a bomber formation, just to be clear.

As I said, I am unsure that the fix is even in right now, I am not feeling that it is. 

Edit: a fix for accuracy made it in, but sleepy gunners is not yet. 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

39 minutes ago, NineLine said:

The point of my video was to show the gunners are working

I understand what you were trying to do.

My point is, if the gunners will not defend against anything other than an long slow noob approach from dead 6 oclock, then in my opinion, no, the gunners are not "working" correctly.

Hopefully the devs will fix it, but just to be clear, side slashing attacks is how I will judge any "fix".  Long slow approaches from dead 6 o'clock is NOT a meaningful test for anything other than a day one noob case.  The kind of pilots DCS has would expect more competent gunners (at least when on ACE level).

Currently, IMHO, it is just not fun attacking WW2 buffs formation if I know attacking from the sides is just shooting fish in a barrel.  Because that is the way I attack 90% of the time.

Fingers crossed for what the devs come up with.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Sure am hoping for this to be fixed in 2.9.

With upcoming Masters of the Air release in Jan, it might bring some WWII interest to DCS.  It would be a good time to piggy back on that interest.

Pity if they got here to find the B-17 don't shoot back in DCS.

It would be a pity to waste that rare opportunity.

https://www.facebook.com/appletv/posts/695309142642324?ref=embed_post

Edited October 5, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[Komet_82]

Hello Community

Any Idea what is the status here?

Just updated to 2.9 and flew the Merchant Convoi Built in Mission with the Spit. When I was approaching the Ju 88's I could fly all around them and attack them smoothly without beeing shot at anytime.

This defenitely should be fixed no?

Thanks

Cheers

Markus

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

1 hour ago, Komet_82 said:

Hello Community

Any Idea what is the status here?

Just updated to 2.9 and flew the Merchant Convoi Built in Mission with the Spit. When I was approaching the Ju 88's I could fly all around them and attack them smoothly without beeing shot at anytime.

This defenitely should be fixed no?

Thanks

Cheers

Markus

 

Disappointing, but expected.  Thanks for saving me the time of going to retest.  I was just about to.

 

It was the second thing I looked for in the change log. But I was hoping it made it and they forgot to list it.

 

 

[SUNTSAG]

Hi All, Testing using that mission will not produce accurate results, because it was setup using specific trigger zones; as to when the bombers are allowed to engage. It was setup this way to accommodate the inclusion of a difficulty level option and the gunners were so accurate at the time of production, that the mission would have been unplayable. Many thanks.