reported AI F-14 appears on RWR too late

[Blackfyre]

Despite having powerful radar AI Tomcat's emission get detected by RWRs too late, approximately from 55-60nm. For example, Flanker's emission detected from 110nm, Viper's from 65nm. I've checked this in F-18 and Su-27. Old AI F-14A, which I guess made by ED, detected from more than 120nm.
Don't know if multiplayer affected, but in singleplayer it makes hard to confront with Tomcat, because it launches Phoenix even before it appear on RWR.

Track (in F-18) with test included.

 

HornetRWR.trk

[Noctrach]

Singleplayer RWRs are a bit of a mess right now on both the F-16 and the F/A-18. Doesn't just affect the F-14 but stuff like the JF-17 as well.

Emissions only appear on RWR very late, but then also give you an STT launch warning halfway through the TWS launches before the missile has a chance to go active.

Probably best to also cross-post this to the ED side of the forums.

[Blackfyre]

1 hour ago, Noctrach said:

Singleplayer RWRs are a bit of a mess right now on both the F-16 and the F/A-18. Doesn't just affect the F-14 but stuff like the JF-17 as well.

Emissions only appear on RWR very late, but then also give you an STT launch warning halfway through the TWS launches before the missile has a chance to go active.

Probably best to also cross-post this to the ED side of the forums.

Maybe there are some problems with Hornet's RWR I didn't noticed, but the same thing is with Flanker's RWR. F-14 and JF-17 appears on RWR almost simultaneously (JF slightly earlier), while JF-17 has much smaller and less powerful radar both on Hornet's RWR and Flanker's RWR. JF-17 range consistent with AI F/A-18 and F-16, therefore I don't think this issue relates to DCS core or F-18.

And there is old AI F-14A(by ED) and new AI F-14A(by Heatblur), former's emission detected at 160nm (!), latter - 55nm (!). This convinced me that problem at Heatblur side.

 

RWR-F14A comparison.trk RWR-Jeff_vs_Tomcat(su-27).trk RWR-Jeff_vs_Tomcat.trk

[near_blind]

All three F-14 AI units use the same radar definition which is controlled by ED.

https://github.com/Quaggles/dcs-lua-datamine/blob/master/_G/db/Sensors/Sensor/ANAPG-71.lua

 

[BIGNEWY]

I have reported to the team for checking, 

thanks

[Moonshine]

did some tests after the recent rwr update.

in some occasions i observed that i get no nails, no spike but an instant launch warning, see tracks attached. the no nail no spike to instant launch warning seems to occur with late activated groups, here tested with a tomcat but also observed with mig29. more specifically late activated via trigger, not via timer.

then specifically with the F-14 when it is not late activated i do get nails however if you compare the range to the track where i tested it with the viper, the viper shows up as nails much earlier. seems weird comparing the strenght of the radars of these planes. i also never get any spike by the tomcat. fair he might launch in TWS. but then why do i get an instant missile launch warning if he shoots in TWS? and if its the missile going active that early, why is it flashing "14" instead of "M" or "U"? also i only ever get one RWR indication but if the missile goes active that early i should get the tomcats ownship (14) and the missile (M) on top - so two RWR indications...

something seems to be very odd.

f-14_late-activate_no-nails-or-spike.trk f-16-late-activate_nails-and-spike.trk f-14_no-spike-instant-MSL-warning.trk

Edited April 13, 2023 by Moonshine

[Lord Vader]

Hi @Moonshine

I will investigate your tracks and analyse what you say. For now let's talk about the instances you're observing.

I believe the Tomcat will often engage targets with TWS, which will not give you a spike, just a nails. You should only get a Missile Launch warning if the missile own seeker goes active. 

The missile launch is only given if a station is locking and firing, the F-16 doesn't have a system like the A-10C when a missile launch is detected in the vicinity regardless of lock.

I am unsure if the F-14 AI will them switch to STT upon launch of a missile, it would be wise to do so in order to maintain lock. If so, it makes sense you get what you describe and this would also justify the F-14 RWR symbol.

Regarding RWR symbology for missiles, the only symbology you'll get upon missile launch from a tracking station is a flashing circle around a threat. 

See this latest video that talks about the most recent changes to the RWR:

 

Again, I will take a look at your tracks and have a look at your claims. It could be the case the F-14 AI is misbehaving, but we'll see.

Thank you for your patience.

[Moonshine]

@Lord Vader

The bigger issue i see in the described situation is that i do not even get nails up until the AI fires the missile, only then the symbology pops up. Even if he TWS shoots me, the RWR should detect nails as his radar has to paint me in order to guide anything. And that is what i would say is clearly wrong.

thanks for looking into it

to be more precise about this

in order to acquire a valid TWS track, the radar has to paint me first for some time, means my RWR will detect that emission as nails PRIOR to missile launch (unless he is in my RWR blindspot which he clearly isnt), no matter in what mode the missile is then finally shot.

the current behavior however does not even give me nails until the missile is already on the way towards me. seems funny, it isnt a heater and needs radar guidance (either the jets radar or the missiles own seeker) in all cases. instead it goes instantly in a STT and my RWR warns me about a missile fired in STT (given the absence of "M" just the flashing 14 indicating a STT launch)
 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Moonshine

[Raptor9]

28 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

The bigger issue i see in the described situation is that i do not even get nails up until the AI fires the missile, only then the symbology pops up. Even if he TWS shoots me, the RWR should detect nails as his radar has to paint me in order to guide anything. And that is what i would say is clearly wrong.

I am not able to watch the track at the moment due to my computer being tied up with other processes. However, just to rule it out, did you have SEARCH mode enabled on the THREAT WARNING AUX panel?

[Moonshine]

@Raptor9 Not initially (shouldnt be needed for air threats..). I started pressing the buttons to see if that could solve the issue. To no avail

edit; replayed the track and took control, tried with search enabled and search disabled, does absolutely nothing

so unless the Ai is that good to know exactly where i am without using radar first (and having no DL or other help) and then instantly turning on the radar AND fire in the same milisecond, then something is very wrong

also in this track you can see the missile is already couple seconds on the way until my RWR detects anything at all

 

and im not using any mods

search-enable-disable.trk

Edited April 13, 2023 by Moonshine

[Lord Vader]

After some testing and reviewing previous reports, this does indeed seem like the AI misbehaving and not an issue with the F-16 RWR on itself.

A previous report was already mentioning this strange AI behaviour, especially with the HB Tomcat. 

For that matter, we will be merging the reports. But, if you find this behaviour in other aircraft, make sure you report it.

Thank you @Moonshine

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

[IronMike]

Thank you @BIGNEWY and @Lord Vader.