Optional Refueling Assist

[shagrat]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

It would matter in multiplayer. Again this would basically be giving players unlimited fuel. 

No! It won't. Or would you say a player that refuels on a tanker has less fuel? How would that work?

Like take-off assist does not give you "better maneuverability"... 

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

No! It won't. Or would you say a player that refuels on a tanker has less fuel? How would that work?

Zipping over to a tanker and pressing a button to effortlessly refuel is nearly the same thing as unlimited fuel. My guess is that most servers would disable it for the same reason they disable unlimited fuel. 

[shagrat]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb mikkebos:

Great idea with refueling assist. Can't  understand theres "pro full extra milsim guys" which can't understand that maybe somebody can't/dont wan't to learn AAR, this is really skilly thing. It would be great if we could have some kind of "suction" between probe/boom and port. If somebody don't want to use it they can switch it off.

It takes away from their feeling of achievement, maybe? I don't understand it either. Especially, as we have things like take-off assist and auto-rudder to help people that lack the money for a premium HOtAS and rudder pedals.

I would love to see anyone pointing out that one guy on the server who uses take-off assist and/or auto-rudder... If they can.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Even Content Creators figured, you need a way to circumvent forced AAR for a paid campaign, so their customers don't end up asking for refunds after the first mission.

Wouldn’t the fact that a campaign requires this be a good enough motivation to learn it? That’s exactly why I learned to AAR, in order to play a campaign. The trouble then is most gameplay doesn’t require AAR so you don’t end up using this skill much. 
DCS players are a special bunch if they ask for a refund because the game is too hard how many player in any other game do that?

[shagrat]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SharpeXB:

Zipping over to a tanker and pressing a button to effortlessly refuel is nearly the same thing as unlimited fuel. My guess is that most servers would disable it for the same reason they disable unlimited fuel. 

They disable unlimited fuel, because it impacts fuel management/weight management. AAR assist would actually solve that problem.

The solution I asked for about 3-4 times already with an adjustable "contact box" and something like a magnetic lasso effect to enable adjustments for each player would btw solve the "press a button" and actually help in training. L

As for "everyone would disable that option", do you know anyone who disables auto-rudder on a server?

Does every server enforce wake turbulence?

What about the single players and campaigns? You feel threatened by a guy managing AAR in his campaign for "reasons"?

[shagrat]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

Wouldn’t the fact that a campaign requires this be a good enough motivation to learn it? That’s exactly why I learned to AAR, in order to play a campaign. The trouble then is most gameplay doesn’t require AAR so you don’t end up using this skill much. 
DCS players are a special bunch if they ask for a refund because the game is too hard how many player in any other game do that?

We run circles here. As I said in the past discussions: no a campaign "requiring" AAR would not be an incentive, but a blocker.

Unfortunately there are people out there that play DCS as a means of decompressing from work, or to have fun. These typically have these things called a job, family and life. So they need to juggle the 2-3 hours spare time a week between their hobbies.

Even with DCS as my only hobby, I don't have the time to train AAR for two to three months (in game 10+ hours) instead of enjoying my hobby.

I guess I am not the only one.

[Exorcet]

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You realize that an Easy Auto AAR option is essentially the same thing as unlimited fuel right?

Objectively false, and painfully obvious that it's false.

Unlimited Fuel takes away fuel management, makes external tanks pointless, and can be used to make a plane unrealistically agile (or sluggish). AAR assists do none of those.

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You just fly on burners back to the tanker, press a button and zip back into action. It would lead to very arcade style gameplay. 

So you think having tankers makes DCS arcade. That's your opinion but I don't think it's a popular one.

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And FC3 is going to be moved from DCS into another game, Modern Air Combat. Which is more suited to the Ace Combat style players. 

No. FC3 is not going anywhere, and it wouldn't matter if it was. I have to ask why you even bring this up. What singular thing does this have to do with the fact that people can choose varying levels of realism on a continuous spectrum rather than only choosing extremes?

I could point out that Uranus is the coldest planet in the solar system despite being closer to the Sun than Neptune, but I wouldn't when it has nothing to do with any posts being made.

[ST0RM]

9 hours ago, Varioss said:

It is a elitsm and I have no idea why you think it’s not… No wait you are from military it all makes sense kek, It’s always the military people complaining about giving everybody fair chance. Superiority complex much? 

And always individuals like yourself that cant do something, so they cry foul and call the ones who can, names. 
 

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

So you think having tankers makes DCS arcade.

No, pressing a button to automatically refuel from them is. 

7 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

No. FC3 is not going anywhere

Pretty sure the plans for those simplified modules is for them to become MAC, it’s been mentioned here many times. 

[shagrat]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb ST0RM:

And always individuals like yourself that cant do something, so they cry foul and call the ones who can, names. 
 

Nothing to do with name calling. The thing that gets people heated up is that some players feel entitled to decide how others have to play. Even if it would be in single player.

I have no issue with AAR assist being an option in MP that you could deactivate on a server and I guess nobody else would.

If "everyone" deactivates AAR assist on their server, fine with me. I can still train in Single Player and host our missions with AAR assist enabled. No problem at all.

[Exorcet]

16 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The ability to effortlessly AAR would have an impact on the gameplay dynamic. Mainly every player running around on full burner.

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No, pressing a button to automatically refuel from them is. 

Let's look closer. You claim easy AAR means everyone flies around in burner, presumably because for some reason everyone who plays DCS utterly lacks self control and is at the whims of their need for immediate endorphin release or something. Now let's focus on the players who know how to AAR, who wouldn't be meaningfully different from other players. Since they all want to fly around in AB all day and they can AAR, then it implies that having tankers a mission would enable these players to do and create an air quake environment.

I mean, I guess you could take more issue with how many buttons it takes someone to do something that you will never be able to detect them doing. I'd rather focus on how realistic the situation is though.

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, shagrat said:

These typically have these things called a job

The thing is if you have a job or a sport or any accomplishment that requires effort you can understand what learning AAR requires. Just apply that to the game. I’m sure the vast majority of players here can drive a car or ride a bicycle. If you can do that you can AAR. It’s not impossible. 

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

The thing is if you have a job or a sport or any accomplishment that requires effort you can understand what learning AAR requires. Just apply that to the game. I’m sure the vast majority of players here can drive a car or ride a bicycle. If you can do that you can AAR. It’s not impossible. 

I assume you're going to go make your own simulator without unlimited fuel instead of taking the easy way out and playing DCS then right?

[shagrat]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

The thing is if you have a job or a sport or any accomplishment that requires effort you can understand what learning AAR requires. Just apply that to the game. I’m sure the vast majority of players here can drive a car or ride a bicycle. If you can do that you can AAR. It’s not impossible. 

See that's what I am talking about. Not even enough to tell me how to play, now you try to control my whole life and priorities.

That's why we will never have a common understanding. 

You want to micromanage how everyone has to play DCS according to your views, while I simply want the freedom to adjust the difficulty of one of the most difficult things in DCS, for myself (!) similar to what take-off assist and auto-rudder already provides. 

It's not even about the option of an AAR assist. Just about control. 

[Varioss]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The thing is if you have a job or a sport or any accomplishment that requires effort you can understand what learning AAR requires. Just apply that to the game. I’m sure the vast majority of players here can drive a car or ride a bicycle. If you can do that you can AAR. It’s not impossible. 

No you still don't understand the core issue. We know how to learn ARR it's just some people don't have the time to put in or they can't even do that.

[Varioss]

28 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

And always individuals like yourself that cant do something, so they cry foul and call the ones who can, names. 
 

When did I say I can't ARR? I support people that won't learn it and don't have the means to learn it. And yes I will call out people who's opinions are just plain wrong and limits other to what they themselves think is the "right way to do X".

Edited October 5, 2022 by Varioss

[shagrat]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

I’m sure the vast majority of players here can drive a car or ride a bicycle. If you can do that you can AAR. It’s not impossible. 

I am sure most people asking for an AAR assist learned riding a bicycle at a time where they had no job and family to take care about and plenty of spare time to put into training.

Unfortunately grown ups often have to deal with very limited time. For example, if I had to get my driver's license these days I would have no idea, how to free up enough time to get a meaningful training schedule.

Could I learn Kite-Surfing? Shure, but I don't have the time. Could I learn AAR sure, but I still don't have the time.

Edited October 5, 2022 by shagrat

[Gruman]

AAR is not that hard. Even if you dont have so much time at hand, its a skill you can gain with just include it in your routine.

But... options are options. If they can be disabled on servers, I wont complain.
But first please finish the work on the AAR overhaul, which was mentioned and announced since years and years. 

Basket physics, selectable amount of fuel, comms, tanker orbits, variable speed, KC-135 which accepts both systems...

[SharpeXB]

31 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Unfortunately grown ups often have to deal with very limited time.

Right. I’m pretty sure most everyone who can AAR has a job and a life etc. It’s not that hard…

If you’re so limited for time how are you flying such long sessions that even require AAR? Having learned this myself I hardly use it due to the fact that I simply don’t regularly play missions which are that long. You can play this game for as long as most people are willing to do in a session without AAR, especially online where you can’t pause the game. I’ve only ever done AAR once in MP in all these years. 
 

Two false assumptions keep coming up in these discussions:

One that AAR is just this unassailable skill. It’s not. And that it’s required in order to play DCS which it’s not either. So if you don’t feel like putting in the practice then you have the option so simply not doing it. 

[shagrat]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Gruman:

AAR is not that hard. Even if you dont have so much time at hand, its a skill you can gain with just include it in your routine.

But... options are options. If they can be disabled on servers, I wont complain.
But first please finish the work on the AAR overhaul, which was mentioned and announced since years and years. 

Basket physics, selectable amount of fuel, comms, tanker orbits, variable speed, KC-135 which accepts both systems...

Yep, that's a valid point. The AAR overhaul may even ease the pain, if the tanker would call turns, or if the boom operator gets some love, etc.

But yeah, in the end an option to adjust the "contact box" for yourself, an optional AAR assist that does what the AI is doing and maybe some training aids/missions that do more than just tell you to "trim and slowly connect" would be super helpful for a lot of people.

Make it options a server admin can deactivate as required and I am sure mostly everyone is happy.

[shagrat]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

Right. I’m pretty sure most everyone who can AAR has a job and a life etc. It’s not that hard…

If you’re so limited for time how are you flying such long sessions that even require AAR? Having learned this myself I hardly use it due to the fact that I simply don’t regularly play missions which are that long. You can play this game for as long as most people are willing to do in a session without AAR, especially online where you can’t pause the game. I’ve only ever done AAR once in MP in all these years. 
 

Two false assumptions keep coming up in these discussions:

One that AAR is just this unassailable skill. It’s not. And that it’s required in order to play DCS which it’s not either. So if you don’t feel like putting in the practice then you have the option so simply not doing it. 

So still the question remains: What concern of YOURS is the way I play DCS?

How does the time I am willing to invest into something affect YOUR experience?

What happens on YOUR server if I allow even AAR assist with full automation on OUR training server?

Why this obsession with controlling everyone elses DCS experience?

I don't see the point, as it has no impact on YOUR DCS experience.

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

I don't see the point, as it has no impact on YOUR DCS experience.

It affects my DCS experience because the effort to create something like this takes time away from other development priorities. I’d rather have a dynamic campaign or Vulkan API or multi core support or literally any other feature in DCS. Otherwise I really wouldn’t care about this feature as long as it was mission/server controlled. And I don’t see why DCS needs this since AAR isn’t required to play the game. 

[Exorcet]

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Two false assumptions keep coming up in these discussions:

One that AAR is just this unassailable skill.

Then don't bring it up. You're the only person to say this.

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It affects my DCS experience because the effort to create something like this takes time away from other development priorities. I’d rather have a dynamic campaign or Vulkan API or multi core support or literally any other feature in DCS. Otherwise I really wouldn’t care about this feature as long as it was mission/server controlled. And I don’t see why DCS needs this since AAR isn’t required to play the game. 

ED has more than one employee at work, and there are even existing options in the game that could be adjusted with minimal changes to create AAR assist. The idea that assists delay DC or Vulkan is nonsensical.

[Varioss]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It affects my DCS experience because the effort to create something like this takes time away from other development priorities. I’d rather have a dynamic campaign or Vulkan API or multi core support or literally any other feature in DCS. Otherwise I really wouldn’t care about this feature as long as it was mission/server controlled. And I don’t see why DCS needs this since AAR isn’t required to play the game. 

No it won't affect it. A engineer responsible for vulkan won't be assigned to do automatic ARR. A person responsible for the core mechanics is gonna do that. It's clear you have no idea how software development works. I sure hope it's gonna get implemented without the ability to block it so people like you will complain more.

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, Varioss said:

No it won't affect it. A engineer responsible for vulkan won't be assigned to do automatic ARR. A person responsible for the core mechanics is gonna do that. It's clear you have no idea how software development works. I sure hope it's gonna get implemented without the ability to block it so people like you will complain more.

Everything has a cost and takes time. Both those are limited resources. 

2 minutes ago, Varioss said:

No it won't affect it. A engineer responsible for vulkan won't be assigned to do automatic ARR. A person responsible for the core mechanics is gonna do that. It's clear you have no idea how software development works. I sure hope it's gonna get implemented without the ability to block it so people like you will complain more.

Ditto