can not reproduce JDAM TOO Ripple Issue

[Str][ker]

I decided to play around with dropping 8 JDAMS in a single pass. There appears to be an issue where the JDAMs are losing their targets and wind up hitting the target of another JDAM. I used to be able to hit 8 different targets with ease, now I tend to only hit 4 or 5.

1. JDAMS aligned and all in TOO mode
2. TOO1 - Designate target using ATFILR, Switch to TOO2, Designate next target using ATFILR, Step to next station
3. Repeat step 2 for all stations
4. Select Quantity and select all stations
5. Release all for TOO1, Select TOO2, Release all

I verify that each JDAM has a unique target based upon a quick check of coordinates. In the attached track file, I select separate targets however some targets are not hit while others get two hits.

Am I missing something / doing something incorrectly?

jdam02.trk

[BIGNEWY]

Hi 

I am not seeing any issue when I test on my end. All JDAM's go where I tell them. 

Pay special attention to which station and TOO you program and pickle. 

If you still see an issue if possible reproduce on Caucasus terrain. 

thank you

 

[Goliathus]

Hi Str][ker,

are you trying to hit tanks or a building? It you´re targeting tanks, it is pretty common that after the first bomb imapcts, other targets start moving and thus they won´t be hit (directly or at all). This is just a simple guess, what can be your issue.

Another possibility is that you don´t use TDC depress after you find your target with ATFLIR, so the new coordinates won´t get to the next JDAM station. This could lead to hitting the same spot twice instead of hitting two different targets.

Goliathus

[Spurts]

Don't you also need to switch from TOO1 to TOO2 for each station sequentially before the next pickle?

[Str][ker]

I have reproduced this issue multiple times and I created a video to illustrate what I see each time. I will link the video once I get it finalized and posted via an unlisted Youtube Link. This is against static targets (in my test mission I used static ground vehicles) which will not move once there are impacts near them.

1. Load of 8 x 500lb JDAMs 2 each per rack. All are set to TOO. All have fuse set. All are aligned.
2. First rack - TOO1 - assign to target 1 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 2. Press Step to next rack.
3. Next rack - TOO1 - assign to target 3 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 4. Press Step to next rack.
4. Next rack - TOO1 - assign to target 5 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 6. Press Step to next rack.
5. Next rack - TOO1 - assign to target 7 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 8.
6. Press Return and the QTY button. I select all 4 weapon stations. This will drop all 4 with a single press and hold of the weapon release button for the selected TOO group. (note: it is important to only select the quantity AFTER assigning each JDAM to its target.  Selecting all first will result in all weapons sharing the same target (whichever is last assigned))
7. I have manually stepped through each rack and both TOO1/TOO2 to verify the targets (using active pause). All are assigned properly. 
8. With TOO1 (or TOO2) selected, I press and hold the weapon release until all 4 bombs are away. I then press TOO2 (or TOO1) and press and hold the weapon release until the last 4 bombs are away.
9. Observing the impacts, I am always hitting 5 targets and missing 3. The 3 bombs which miss their assigned target instead hit the other targets. The specific targets missed seem to vary for reasons unknown. This is 100% repeatable.

I have used this method in the past to drop 8 weapons on 8 stationary targets without issue. JDAMs should each retain their respective target and not pick up a target assigned to another weapon. All JDAMS have their targets assigned in an identical manner and some work while others don't. This should not happen.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Str][ker

[Str][ker]

Here's the video and the mission which I used to demonstrate.

 

 

JDAM Demo03.miz

[Foka]

1. You don't have to change coordinates to precision on HSI. HSI is a navigational display, doesn't play a role in JDAM programming. Target' coordinates are send directly from TGP to JDAM in TOO.

2. TOO1 and TOO2 programms are unique for each station. When you drop first 4 JDAMs it's not enough to just select TOO2 on one station. You need to change TOO on EACH station. You can also see you're not droping all JDAMs on TOO1 - when you ripple box jumps between TOO1 and TOO2, because you have some stations set to TOO1 and some to TOO2. First set all stations to TOO1, ripple, then you need to TOO2 -> STEP -> TOO2 -> STEP -> TOO2 -> STEP _> TOO2 and now you can ripple second half of bombs.

[Str][ker]

13 minutes ago, Foka said:

1. You don't have to change coordinates to precision on HSI. HSI is a navigational display, doesn't play a role in JDAM programming. Target' coordinates are send directly from TGP to JDAM in TOO.

2. TOO1 and TOO2 programms are unique for each station. When you drop first 4 JDAMs it's not enough to just select TOO2 on one station. You need to change TOO on EACH station. You can also see you're not droping all JDAMs on TOO1 - when you ripple box jumps between TOO1 and TOO2, because you have some stations set to TOO1 and some to TOO2. First set all stations to TOO1, ripple, then you need to TOO2 -> STEP -> TOO2 -> STEP -> TOO2 -> STEP _> TOO2 and now you can ripple second half of bombs.

Regarding number 1.. I put the aircraft into precise mode so that I could show through the FLIR that the JDAM coordinates were accurate for each target. I usually don't do this.

Regarding number 2.. I understand that each station has TOO1 and TOO2 but I did miss the aspect of setting all stations to the same TOO. I've never had to do this before and have always dropped all bombs on designated targets. In the video, (and when I have done this over multiple attempts) all bombs are dropped.. the issue is that some of the bombs hit a target which it is not supposed to and misses the designated target.

I'll try setting all stations to the same TOO and see if it makes a difference.. I generally have them all on the same TOO (TOO2).. I just stepped through them all in the video to show that the targets were properly assigned.

[Goliathus]

As Foka said, you did correctly store all coordinates to all stations and for all TOOs (1/2), but you forgot to change the TOO1 to TOO2 on some stations before releasing the second half of your bombs.

Your bombs always follow the coordinates preloaded on the very exact TOO (1 or 2) that was selected at the time of release. It doesn´t matter that you dropped first bomb from that station to the TOO1 coodrdinates, it won´t automatically switch to the TOO2 for the second bomb on that very same station. You must do this manually for each station if you don´t want to hit the same target with two different bombs.

In the Hornet it takes few clicks to drop 8 bombs on 8 different targets on a single run. You can ripple 4 bombs at once easily with holding the pickle button, but then you quickly have to manually change all TOO1 to TOO2 (for each station!) before releasing another 4 bombs. 

 

[Foka]

You don't HAVE TO set all stations to this same TOO. It just helps with changing TOO programms on second ripple. What's important - after first ripple you have to change TOO programm on ALL stations, not only one, what you did in the video.

[Str][ker]

6 hours ago, Goliathus said:

As Foka said, you did correctly store all coordinates to all stations and for all TOOs (1/2), but you forgot to change the TOO1 to TOO2 on some stations before releasing the second half of your bombs.

Your bombs always follow the coordinates preloaded on the very exact TOO (1 or 2) that was selected at the time of release. It doesn´t matter that you dropped first bomb from that station to the TOO1 coodrdinates, it won´t automatically switch to the TOO2 for the second bomb on that very same station. You must do this manually for each station if you don´t want to hit the same target with two different bombs.

In the Hornet it takes few clicks to drop 8 bombs on 8 different targets on a single run. You can ripple 4 bombs at once easily with holding the pickle button, but then you quickly have to manually change all TOO1 to TOO2 (for each station!) before releasing another 4 bombs. 

 

Yeah that's all making sense now! Thanks. It has been a long time since I did this and so I guess I forgot about that particular step. I really thought that I would just switch on the one page but obviously I am mistaken. This also makes sense as to why the targets missed sometimes varies.. it would be because of which TOO the particular station was sitting on. I greatly appreciate everyone's help! 

[Str][ker]

1 minute ago, Foka said:

You don't HAVE TO set all stations to this same TOO. It just helps with changing TOO programms on second ripple. What's important - after first ripple you have to change TOO programm on ALL stations, not only one, what you did in the video.

Yeah. I can't believe that I neglected that step! I had searched through older videos on Youtube and they had varying methodologies based upon the state of JDAM programing at the time. For a while, you were not to designate each target and were supposed to just select the next TOO and step to the next station. The next thing was you would have to use mark points to designate because the TOO1 and TOO2 would not store separate targets on each station. We finally got to the current configuration which I did use before but I guiess I completely spaced on setting each station correctly. Well, I'm going to make a video about this hard learned lesson  

Thanks for taking the time to look at what I was doing and providing feedback! You saved my sanity because I was doing this over and over and could not figure out what I was doing wrong and so I figured I should come here to ask if it was a problem. (turns out *I* was the problem.. lol)