=617= Evil Posted October 21, 2022 Posted October 21, 2022 So, I've been flying the Viper for a couple months and enjoy it like crazy, but I'm having issues with fine control inputs in situations like strafing runs, AA Refueling and on landings, especially in bad weather, and find myself overcorrecting. Aside from the obvious answer of getting more stick time and stop having gorilla hands, I was hoping to get some insight from other folks who might have the same equipment as me. Currently using the stock 'medium' springs that come installed in the stick, and haven't changed my dead zones or axis at all from default within the DCS controls themselves. Is there anything non-skill based I could manipulate with my equipment and/or settings that might help? Thank you! In Thrust We Trust.
Hempstead Posted October 22, 2022 Posted October 22, 2022 I don’t have a VKB, but I use Warthog with the stock very strong spring. My recommendation — you need a curve for the fine adjustment of the throttle. Believe it or not, aerial refueling, and ILS landing (if you are aiming for proper glide slope tracking w/ little to no stick works) are a lot of fine throttle works.Those are not the hair on fire maverick kind of jobs. I couldn’t do F-16 aerial refueling before I did a curve on my throttle, and stick. But, after the curves…. still a lot of practices, but I could immediately see the end of the tunnel. 1
=617= Evil Posted October 22, 2022 Author Posted October 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Hempstead said: I don’t have a VKB, but I use Warthog with the stock very strong spring. My recommendation — you need a curve for the fine adjustment of the throttle. Believe it or not, aerial refueling, and ILS landing (if you are aiming for proper glide slope tracking w/ little to no stick works) are a lot of fine throttle works.Those are not the hair on fire maverick kind of jobs. I couldn’t do F-16 aerial refueling before I did a curve on my throttle, and stick. But, after the curves…. still a lot of practices, but I could immediately see the end of the tunnel. Mind sharing what you have your curves set at in-game? In Thrust We Trust.
Hempstead Posted October 22, 2022 Posted October 22, 2022 12 hours ago, =617= Evil said: Mind sharing what you have your curves set at in-game? Like I said, my curve is useless for you, b/c mine is a Warthog. But the basic idea is that you want to reserve more resolution (movement of the throttle) to the mid-range movement right before the AB detent. Because this is where your throttle will be for fine tuning your speed to match up to the usual 309 kt/hr of the tanker. You will need enough resolution to fine tune your speed within 1 or 2 kts. If your default linear curve can't fine tune within 2 kts around 309 kts.... you are going to have a very short window of staying in "contact" with the fuel probe. Staying in sync with the tanker will be very difficult if you can't stay within 307 and 311, preferably within 308 and 310 range. I am able to make it stick to 309 for something like 15 seconds, and the I would slowing either go forward of drop backward... as soon as that happens, I adjust for one more kt, 307 or 310 to get back to the middle. You see, if your throttle can't fine tune to that resolution, you are bound to be doing 315, or 305 and nothing in between, so your window of contact could be as short as 3 seconds... so every 2 seconds you will be doing a human induced oscillation. You come in with 315... contact... and you reduce the throttle a bit... 2 seconds later, you are dropping back too much... so you bump up the throttle a bit, and 2 seconds later you are speeding at 312... so you reduce a bit, and so on and so forth. And in the mean time you are dealing with human induced speed oscillation, you are drifting left and right, up and down.... And again, if you are not curving your stick to your liking, now you have 3 human induced oscillations to deal with simultaneously.... I don't know about yours, but my brain can't compute that! Sure, once you opened your refueling door, the response curve changes, DCS models that, and that helps a lot, but if your throttle and stick are not able to provide enough resolution at where it counts, 309 kts... it's difficult. 1
Braunn Posted October 23, 2022 Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) On 10/22/2022 at 3:02 AM, Hempstead said: I don’t have a VKB, but I use Warthog with the stock very strong spring. My recommendation — you need a curve for the fine adjustment of the throttle. Believe it or not, aerial refueling, and ILS landing (if you are aiming for proper glide slope tracking w/ little to no stick works) are a lot of fine throttle works.Those are not the hair on fire maverick kind of jobs. I couldn’t do F-16 aerial refueling before I did a curve on my throttle, and stick. But, after the curves…. still a lot of practices, but I could immediately see the end of the tunnel. Proof right here we're all different. Removing all curves made it a lot easier for me to do every aspect of flying the VIper. AAR is just easy now with some practice ofcourse. As a suggestion to whoever struggle with AAR in the VIper. Just remove all curves and deadzones and practice constant micro adjusting. Dont ever stop moving your arms and feet. Edited October 23, 2022 by Braunn 1 1
Hempstead Posted October 23, 2022 Posted October 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Braunn said: Proof right here we're all different. Removing all curves made it a lot easier for me to do every aspect of flying the VIper. AAR is just easy now with some practice ofcourse. As a suggestion to whoever struggle with AAR in the VIper. Just remove all curves and deadzones and practice constant micro adjusting. Dont ever stop moving your arms and feet. So, you are advocating a linear curve for all cases, if I understand correctly? Could it he possible that you curved it badly, causing human induced oscillation, thus removing that curve made it easier for you? I would very much agree that our setups and preferences are all different. What works for me not necessarily will work for you. What I “reasoned” was that if your setup does not have “enough” resolution at the throttle range around 309 kts when the refueling door was opened, you are going to have trouble with human induced oscillation. That is often, but not always the cause of difficulty in AAR (to me, the biggest trouble was the inability to see the tanker indicator lights with my Quest 2, which I could see clearly in 4K pancake, so I am always guessing about my location). The main takeaway should be — if you have difficulty with AAR, see if you have trouble with fine adjustment of speed around 309 kts. If you cannot easily adjust within ±1 kt, then you need to try a curve to allocate more resolution to that mid-range throttle movement. Before ED updated the response curve when the refueling door was opened, about 2 or 3 months ago (?), it was nigh impossible for me to adjust within ±1 kt without a custom curve. But, if you are still having trouble with the ±1 kt trouble now. Try curve it, with a number to measure it with, instead of blindly apply some Internet witch brew. Not that Internet witch brews don’t work. If you apply enough of them, hopefully in isolation, one of them is bound to work. Witch brews? Yep, the ones come without reasoning. Moreover, if you want AB detent mod, you have no choice but to curve it. And BTW, a linear line is a special case of curve. I should say, a dog leg for the AB detent, then a linear “curve.” This gives me an idea of a mechanical adjustable throttle stop, in conjunction with my electronically programmable force generator! THANKS! 1
=617= Evil Posted October 23, 2022 Author Posted October 23, 2022 21 hours ago, Hempstead said: Like I said, my curve is useless for you, b/c mine is a Warthog. But the basic idea is that you want to reserve more resolution (movement of the throttle) to the mid-range movement right before the AB detent. Because this is where your throttle will be for fine tuning your speed to match up to the usual 309 kt/hr of the tanker. You will need enough resolution to fine tune your speed within 1 or 2 kts. If your default linear curve can't fine tune within 2 kts around 309 kts.... you are going to have a very short window of staying in "contact" with the fuel probe. Staying in sync with the tanker will be very difficult if you can't stay within 307 and 311, preferably within 308 and 310 range. I am able to make it stick to 309 for something like 15 seconds, and the I would slowing either go forward of drop backward... as soon as that happens, I adjust for one more kt, 307 or 310 to get back to the middle. You see, if your throttle can't fine tune to that resolution, you are bound to be doing 315, or 305 and nothing in between, so your window of contact could be as short as 3 seconds... so every 2 seconds you will be doing a human induced oscillation. You come in with 315... contact... and you reduce the throttle a bit... 2 seconds later, you are dropping back too much... so you bump up the throttle a bit, and 2 seconds later you are speeding at 312... so you reduce a bit, and so on and so forth. And in the mean time you are dealing with human induced speed oscillation, you are drifting left and right, up and down.... And again, if you are not curving your stick to your liking, now you have 3 human induced oscillations to deal with simultaneously.... I don't know about yours, but my brain can't compute that! Sure, once you opened your refueling door, the response curve changes, DCS models that, and that helps a lot, but if your throttle and stick are not able to provide enough resolution at where it counts, 309 kts... it's difficult. This makes a ton of sense, and I know now I need to make some adjustments to my throttle curve because just as you said, I can't fine tune to 1-2 knots speed. Definitely something to work on. Thank you! In Thrust We Trust.
Braunn Posted October 23, 2022 Posted October 23, 2022 3 hours ago, Hempstead said: So, you are advocating a linear curve for all cases, if I understand correctly? Could it he possible that you curved it badly, causing human induced oscillation, thus removing that curve made it easier for you? I would very much agree that our setups and preferences are all different. What works for me not necessarily will work for you. What I “reasoned” was that if your setup does not have “enough” resolution at the throttle range around 309 kts when the refueling door was opened, you are going to have trouble with human induced oscillation. That is often, but not always the cause of difficulty in AAR (to me, the biggest trouble was the inability to see the tanker indicator lights with my Quest 2, which I could see clearly in 4K pancake, so I am always guessing about my location). The main takeaway should be — if you have difficulty with AAR, see if you have trouble with fine adjustment of speed around 309 kts. If you cannot easily adjust within ±1 kt, then you need to try a curve to allocate more resolution to that mid-range throttle movement. Before ED updated the response curve when the refueling door was opened, about 2 or 3 months ago (?), it was nigh impossible for me to adjust within ±1 kt without a custom curve. But, if you are still having trouble with the ±1 kt trouble now. Try curve it, with a number to measure it with, instead of blindly apply some Internet witch brew. Not that Internet witch brews don’t work. If you apply enough of them, hopefully in isolation, one of them is bound to work. Witch brews? Yep, the ones come without reasoning. Moreover, if you want AB detent mod, you have no choice but to curve it. And BTW, a linear line is a special case of curve. I should say, a dog leg for the AB detent, then a linear “curve.” This gives me an idea of a mechanical adjustable throttle stop, in conjunction with my electronically programmable force generator! THANKS! Yeah thats what I'm advocating, at least give it a honest try, but also I'm saying that curves tend to be smoke and mirrors for many pilots. A totally linear input puts the micro in micro adjustments. What you input is what you get. Also, a throttle curve would be kinda misleading, at least for ME, when AAR with different configurations. A clean Viper coming home from BFM practice with no bags or any stations populated is very different, than refueling a top off in a fully loaded pre ingress bird. If I was struggling I would try without curves first and expect some practice to be done. Yeah I remember before summer when ED screwed up the pitch control with AR door open. Not only did they mess/turn up to 11 the pitch and sensitivity but they also added a deadzone to the stick config. It was very noticeable for somebody that flew no deadzone and no curves. lol 2
Solution RuskyV Posted October 24, 2022 Solution Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) @=617= Evil Leave the curve and play with the -Y saturation, defaults will be 100 percent so start by taking just 1 or 2 percent away for the role. Do the same for the pitch using -Y saturation, this time you can afford to use a little more however don’t go lower than 78%. Using curves are great for analog controlled jets and choppers, anything FBW you want a default linear curve and only play with just a few percent on the -Y saturation. I would avoid adjusting saturation and linearity both together. hope this helps. Edited October 24, 2022 by RuskyV 1 1
Doncho Posted October 24, 2022 Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) Talking about curves, has anyone got the link for the afterburner detent curve calculator? Edited October 24, 2022 by Doncho
MAXsenna Posted October 24, 2022 Posted October 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Doncho said: Talking about curves, has anyone got the link for the afterburner detent curve calculator? https://forum.dcs.world/topic/266534-dcs-detent-calculator-by-jc-of-di-and-bailey-update-w-invert-x-sat-deadzone/ 1
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