New Wingman Menu

[Exorcet]

I'd like to propose a new menu for wingman coordination. I think most people would like something faster and more powerful than the current F10 menu. I propose a popup window where we can set options for wingmen similar to what is available in the mission editor for tasking:

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The above image is a rough concept and in no way inclusive of everything needed for this menu, but I think it gets the idea across. Instead of scrolling through layers to find the right command and issuing commands one at a time, everything is displayed at once. Options are drop down format, click the down arrow icon next to an option to change it. Then of course there are checkboxes for things that need no input, like join formation, or attack target. I think there is also room for new functions like requesting wingman fuel and weapons states.

While I do have a drop down for target select, I don't think this would work very well in a crowded mission, so I think this option should also be available on the F10 map. If something appears on the F10 map, you can click it and assign a wingman or your entire flight to attack it. This may require new F10 map options however. For example in a mission where the F10 map is intended to be disabled, we could represent potential targets in a ring around the player position instead of at their true locations, or perhaps the units will only be displayed at their true locations if they are detected (sort of like Fog of War).

[sirrah]

Personally, I only wish the radio menu was more VR friendly.

I understand your proposal and appreciate the effort you made in your OP, honestly. I do agree your suggestion is probably better than what we have now. But also, I think this will be very VR user unfriendly 

 

It's really sad to see that VAICOM is abandoned and I really hope ED will some day implement something like VAICOM to their core game. Nothing beats operating the radio by using your voice imho.

[Exorcet]

It is true that I did not consider VR as I am not a user of this feature.

Do you think the menu could be modified for VR use? Perhaps it would need to expand to full screen and the drop down menus would need to be replaced with sliders so that it takes less effort to change the settings?

Or this could just be one of two menu options. We have one for screens and a totally different one for VR.

[corbu1]

vor einer Stunde schrieb sirrah:

Personally, I only wish the radio menu was more VR friendly.

I understand your proposal and appreciate the effort you made in your OP, honestly. I do agree your suggestion is probably better than what we have now. But also, I think this will be very VR user unfriendly 

 

It's really sad to see that VAICOM is abandoned and I really hope ED will some day implement something like VAICOM to their core game. Nothing beats operating the radio by using your voice imho.

I fully agree!

The radio menu relating on the F1 up to F12 is really not VR friendly. 
Of course mouse usage is possible, but this is not much more user friendly I think.

I‘m wondering if a toggle up/ down button concept would work better.

Buttons could be reduced to 4 or 5 buttons (toggle up/ down, list forward and back, enter), which would make button bindings to joystick or throttle multiway switches easier?

 

Actually I‘m using a Razer Tartarus for the menu keys, which you get used to in VR with muscle mind connection after some time. Since Vaicom Pro is abandond and did never really work for the AH64D this is my way with radio menu.

 

As you said there‘s nothing more realistic than simulating radio com‘s with your voice. I really hope ED will implement a voice system for radio coms!!!

[SharpeXB]

I’m not sure this idea is any better than what’s in the game now. Especially if it doesn’t have key commands. Many times those are faster and easier to do and memorize. For VR or even non-VR I’m sure a simple speech to text app can be set to command the F keys. 

[Exorcet]

20 hours ago, corbu1 said:

Buttons could be reduced to 4 or 5 buttons (toggle up/ down, list forward and back, enter), which would make button bindings to joystick or throttle multiway switches easier?

I've always felt like these are the kind of binds you don't want on your HOTAS (unless you have extra button space left over I guess). It's partly why I like having a pop up kind of menu. I also think making is more mouse friendly is good thing because there are a lot of wingman commands and you sometimes needs to give multiple commands at once. This isn't great with the current system because it can involve jumping through lots of F10 menu levels or having to remember a bunch of keyboard shortcuts, which there aren't enough of to cover every situation. I specifically added an orbit with altitude in my example picture because there is no such option currently, and if there was it would potentially be a nightmare to quickly command because you'd need many F10 options for different altitudes or many shortcut keys for different altitudes.

In my opinion, a drop down menu is just so much better here.

20 hours ago, corbu1 said:

As you said there‘s nothing more realistic than simulating radio com‘s with your voice. I really hope ED will implement a voice system for radio coms!!!

This would be a good addition for DCS, but I don't think a UI based menu should ever go away. For one thing voice commands require getting additional hardware, it also has to work for multiple languages, and it's not always interpreted correctly. A menu can also give more feedback depending on how verbose the AI is in responding to commands. For example, I imagine it's easier to have a popup for flight fuel and weapon states than creating voice lines to cover every situation.

[Jayhawk1971]

I agree that a dedicated, integrated Vaicom-esque speech recognition mode would by far be the best and most immersive solution for VR users.

For pancake, and for those who - unlike me - don't want to embarrass themselves in front of family and friends by wearing a headset and talking into the void   , a Jester-like wheel (with transparency slider) would be the next best solution for an enhanced comms menu, IMO.

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

I agree that a dedicated, integrated Vaicom-esque speech recognition mode would by far be the best and most immersive solution for VR users.

For pancake, and for those who - unlike me - don't want to embarrass themselves in front of family and friends by wearing a headset and talking into the void   , a Jester-like wheel (with transparency slider) would be the next best solution for an enhanced comms menu, IMO.

Jester wheel definitely isn't for everyone. That's a hardpass from me. Optional sure, but if it was mandatory it would be a huge downgrade in my opinion.

[cfrag]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:40 PM, sirrah said:

Personally, I only wish the radio menu was more VR friendly.

While the whole radio menu isn't very user friendly at all, I feel that I'm overlooking something here: I simply look at the menu (my cursor follows where my hmd is looking), and click on the radio menu items. I thought that this is a universally available feature in VR. That's also how I control 90% of the non-HOTAS buttons in my cockpit. I tried Voice Attack, and found that simply glance-clicking is better (since you need to read the menus anyway). Isn't look-clicking (for lack of better words) available to all VR users?   

[MAXsenna]

48 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I tried Voice Attack, and found that simply glance-clicking is better (since you need to read the menus anyway).

If you already have VoiceAttack, you should try out VAICOM, the free basic version of VAICOM is open for all.

Not sure what you mean by reading menus if you use VoiceAttack. In VAICOM, no need for menus, no text, everything hidden and immersive if you want it to. 

[cfrag]

47 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Not sure what you mean by reading menus if you use VoiceAttack.

Apologies for being obscure. I meant that when I read a menu item like 'request taxi' my eyes are already on it, and I might as well click it right there. I use VA for the function keys, so I could say "Function Fiver" and VA generates an F5 keypress, but for that I need to know which F-Key is required and so I glance there. Really annoying during AAR, and the reason I went to VA in the first place.  

I'm aware of (and highly interested in) VAICOM, just didn't have the time. It's on my definite bucket list, abandonware or not.

Edited October 24, 2022 by cfrag

[Lace]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

While the whole radio menu isn't very user friendly at all, I feel that I'm overlooking something here: I simply look at the menu (my cursor follows where my hmd is looking), and click on the radio menu items. I thought that this is a universally available feature in VR. That's also how I control 90% of the non-HOTAS buttons in my cockpit. I tried Voice Attack, and found that simply glance-clicking is better (since you need to read the menus anyway). Isn't look-clicking (for lack of better words) available to all VR users?   

This is exactly how I do it.  Not sure how it can be any easier or quicker to be honest.  I'm not sure how or why so many VR users seem to overcomplicate it.

My trim hat is mapped as LMB/RMB/Scroll  up/down, with trim functions mapped as modifer+trim hat.

[sirrah]

3 hours ago, Lace said:

This is exactly how I do it.  Not sure how it can be any easier or quicker to be honest.  I'm not sure how or why so many VR users seem to overcomplicate it.

My trim hat is mapped as LMB/RMB/Scroll  up/down, with trim functions mapped as modifer+trim hat.

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't like the "look-and-click" feature at all. I tried it before I (quite literally ) got my hands on PointCTRL, but I found it super difficult to keep my head steady enough to click the correct radio menu line (let alone click the smaller buttons in the cockpit, but that's not for the topic at hand)

[Exorcet]

This topic was a little derailed with VR discussion, which is fine since a VR equivalent is probably needed, however I wanted to highlight one of the reason why I think this revamped menu is important.

The screenshot below is from a test of a mission today and shows how my AI responded to an "attack bandits" command.

 

 

As you can see, control over them is limited and they don't really act logically. The plan here was to engage the group to the west with 2 and then turn around and let the second element attack as we extended. However 4 commits to attacking something way to far away that no one else is focusing on, which is a good way to get shot down or waste fuel chasing something in AB for many miles. I could have tried ordering attack my target and designating with my radar, but this is incredibly slow and clunky and there is currently no way to directly issue orders to wingman 4 or the second element (at least in the F-16). With my menu, designating targets would be much easier and faster, and it would work even better with a wingman overhaul that is desperately needed.

[Doncho]

I agree 100% that the radio menu needs a complete overhaul, taking into account VR. In my opinion it should be planned and developped, or minimally voice attack friendly so it can be controlled by voice. To that end, minimally, it should be provided the direct command actions for every radio command, so one can bind a key to them.

[falcon_120]

+1

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[MAXsenna]

On 10/28/2022 at 8:58 AM, Doncho said:

I agree 100% that the radio menu needs a complete overhaul, taking into account VR. In my opinion it should be planned and developped, or minimally voice attack friendly so it can be controlled by voice. To that end, minimally, it should be provided the direct command actions for every radio command, so one can bind a key to them.

I absolutely agree, but if you do have VoiceAttack, why don't you try VAICOM, now it's free, in the mean time? 

Cheers!