F-14B V Su-27 ACM Guns Only Caucuses Instant Action Mission

[captain_dalan]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:09 AM, bonesvf103 said:

CaptDalan,

 

Thanks for your efforts.  I didn't see any AI updates in the last patch and that mini one from the other day either.  So their behavior changing since the last major patch with the AI changes seems unlikely.  The keyword being SEEMS.  There are lots of times when I felt 100% confident that the bandits had changed the way they flew after a patch, but then changed again afterwards even though there was no future patch.  I theorized that maybe small updates were being pushed without us knowing, what another collegue of mine here called "stealth patches" but tons of people would tell me that's just crazy talk.  But it just seems that way sometimes.  So I wouldn't doubt what you said.

 

 

 

Trust me mate, updates are there constantly, regardless of the changelog mentioning them or not. On at least one occasion in a topic on the AI behavior (when an AI VIPER would fly vertical loops at 60 knots airspeed) the issue was fixed and there never was any mention of it, aside from my topic. So, for ill or for good, changes are constantly being made. 

[captain_dalan]

6 hours ago, IronMike said:

The thing is, yes the AI right now is sometimes weirdly unrealistic, the worst offender is the F16, pulling 8-9Gs indefinitely, above 500 kts, indefinitely... The rest however is not so bad. But either way, it should not discourage you from kicking their ass nonetheless, it only has a positive upside of learning something, of being forced to think out of the box, etc. See the video below (sorry I recorded it earlier today before your input display request, but it would not add much anyway, because you have the right idea already, the nose coming up and down is exactly what I described with "fapping for speed".) The AI F16, in all my, dunno around 5 tries, never ever managed to fire a single shot. You win every single time against the F16, by it either running out of gas, or running into the ground. ........

 

 

F-14A vs Ace F-16 AI.zip.acmi 149.71 kB · 1 download

 

I actually manage to get a gun kill on him in the NTTR instant action every now and then before the poor bugger gets out of gas and ejects, might even record one if i ever get the time(i have plenty of tacviews if anyone wants them). But seriously, you guys should maybe reconsider refactoring some of these missions. I don't think the average user will actually learn too much from them, not have that much fun with them, except maybe maybe exercise in frustration.  Maybe keep one of them, say the Viper one as a special challenge, but i would argue flying in circles until he runs out of gas, isn't that much of a challenge. Gunning him down before he does is. What i noticed that is every time he does run out of gas, i still have about 3000pds left, even though i'm in the A, and practically in burner at all times except before the merge. So maybe make the Fulcrum and the Viper a bit heavier in the regular IAs and keep a very light Viper as a block 15 or 32 surrogate in a special challenge mission? 

19 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

Well I watched your video IronMike and I ahve to say I am flying pretty much the same as you in the same regime.  I did getr a few kills but they were all snapshot kills or blind hots kills, which felt more like really lucky pot shots.  I dunno, I feel like when doing this everything I've learned about ACM and geometry just goes out the window and what's the point of all that theory if it just comes down to a lucky shot?  Maybe that's the way it is now, but it feels so unnatrual and contradictory to actually flying and fighting "by the book."  It is still very frustrating to me, especially when it always always ALWAYS seems like the Su-27 can hold his turn and hold it and hold it and never friggin lose energy.

And can you better explain the concept of the 1 nm pole sticking out of his ass?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

I think you are trying too hard to apply real world rules to a game that doesn't play by them.  
So you have to metagame the buggers. Just like in any shooter. Exploits, exploits, exploits...... do you think the AI cares it never runs out of energy or blacks out, while you do? The Viper drivers are in a pickle even more, their core envelope is in the 400s and they have no nose pointing ability to speak off. Imagine fighting the same missions in their ride  

[captain_dalan]

To all:
Has anyone actually tried to make for copies of the same missions and just change the AI to see if there are actually any differences? I think as much i like this upgrade, it's gonna play havoc to the content creators, mostly campaign and mission designers. I would hate to replay some of the stuff i did in the past with the current state of flight modeling for the bots. 

[draconus]

Good flying and aiming guys. Your videos show that indeed Tomcat can hold its own in dogfighting but also shows how much better AI got lately. Having still SFM (flight modeling did not change, only behavior) it's not very realistic but it's definitely not UFO and they still loose energy in turns and climbs.

@IronMike can you consider removing flares from AI in gunzo missions?

@bonesvf103 the clean shots with pipper kept long on the bandit were only possible because the enemy has let us. You can be also a victim if you keep pulling on the stick flying straight, not having much SA, when the enemy is on your six.

Edited November 22, 2022 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

11 hours ago, draconus said:

Good flying and aiming guys. Your videos show that indeed Tomcat can hold its own in dogfighting but also shows how much better AI got lately. Having still SFM (flight modeling did not change, only behavior) it's not very realistic but it's definitely not UFO and they still loose energy in turns and climbs.

@IronMike can you consider removing flares from AI in gunzo missions?

@bonesvf103 the clean shots with pipper kept long on the bandit were only possible because the enemy has let us. You can be also a victim if you keep pulling on the stick flying straight, not having much SA, when the enemy is on your six.

 

What i'm most worried about is this, either TV can't handle it, or something very weird is going on here:
null

[IronMike]

45 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

What i'm most worried about is this, either TV can't handle it, or something very weird is going on here:
null

Tacview telemetry can be super unreliable. It's nothing to either go by or worry about.

[captain_dalan]

On 11/23/2022 at 1:14 AM, IronMike said:

Tacview telemetry can be super unreliable. It's nothing to either go by or worry about.

Well that's why i used "either", but it's good to know 
And in other news today, when one has 20 minutes of free time on their hands on a Saturday....
 

 

[FR4GGL3]

20 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

And in other news today, when one has 20 minutes of free time on their hands on a Saturday....
 

 

Well done in the A. I struggle with the Fulcrum even in a B.

Very impressive in my eyes

 

But I've got a Question: did you forget to switch the Gun to AA speed or is it something you do because of less waste on snapshot attempts?

Edited December 5, 2022 by FR4GGL3

[captain_dalan]

7 hours ago, FR4GGL3 said:

Well done in the A. I struggle with the Fulcrum even in a B.

Very impressive in my eyes

 

But I've got a Question: did you forget to switch the Gun to AA speed or is it something you do because of less waste on snapshot attempts?

 

Thanks mate! Nah, no intent on my part, i had so little time for DCS i just forgot to turn on the high gun rate mode . Given the chance, i even take snapshots with high gun rate. 

[Spurts]

Well, I see the behavior of the Flanker people are talking about, but I still get shots on him and avoid his nose with little more than timed small radius pulls.

 

 

[FR4GGL3]

Did you drop the Tanks? I can only get him these days if I drop the Tanks. Back a few patches in the past I could easily get him with the tanks on. The Flanker in this Mission can pull like crazy now.

I always try to snapshot the Flanker in a one circle approach. If you have hit him only a single time, it seems he starts to chill down a bit. Then you can get on his six and shoot him.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't complain about that mission. It is still fun.

[Spurts]

3 hours ago, FR4GGL3 said:

Did you drop the Tanks? I can only get him these days if I drop the Tanks. Back a few patches in the past I could easily get him with the tanks on. The Flanker in this Mission can pull like crazy now.

I always try to snapshot the Flanker in a one circle approach. If you have hit him only a single time, it seems he starts to chill down a bit. Then you can get on his six and shoot him.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't complain about that mission. It is still fun.

There were tanks on in that mission?  I didn't pay attention to the loadout at all.

[FR4GGL3]

That also explains your massive AoA Units and your slowdowns. ^^

Last time I looked at the plane from outside, it had tanks on its belly

[Spurts]

14 minutes ago, FR4GGL3 said:

That also explains your massive AoA Units and your slowdowns. ^^

Last time I looked at the plane from outside, it had tanks on its belly

No, those were intentional.  I was testing to see if a low energy radius fight could combat the high energy rate fight.  It largely could.  With some more practice I would be able to get the shot sooner.

[FR4GGL3]

Okay, I didn't understand that. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Bremspropeller]

I just did the single mission in the 14A and stuck to purely buster. Was a piece of cake to just park there in neutral/ offensive and watch the Flanker waste all his gas. Had more than 7000lbs of gas left when he went for his paratrooper-upgrade. Sometimes, not going around the corner and putting the thing on the thing is the easier way round...

Coming back to the cat after flying the F1 vs the Fishbed for several weeks seems like candy from a duck to water. Or something.

 

It's time the AI get their GFM.

[Spurts]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

stuck to purely buster

meaning please?

[Bremspropeller]

Dry, no blower.

[captain_dalan]

15 hours ago, Spurts said:

There were tanks on in that mission?  I didn't pay attention to the loadout at all.

Yeah, i always keep 'em on as part of the challenge.

[draconus]

5 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Yeah, i always keep 'em on as part of the challenge.

Yep, same, it's like part of the airframe.

[FR4GGL3]

Challenge accepted. I will try it with tanks on.

[captain_dalan]

The final challenge, swapped the vanilla Viper for the ED version, picked the USN adversary skin, remove pylons, matched the fuel of the vanilla bandit, and tried to shoot it down before it ran out of fuel. Took 5 tries

 

[FR4GGL3]

What a great proof of how to handle the A. Even if it almost starves if you go vertical.

And also a good proof of how many Lags and mini freezes some missions show.

[captain_dalan]

18 hours ago, FR4GGL3 said:

What a great proof of how to handle the A. Even if it almost starves if you go vertical.

And also a good proof of how many Lags and mini freezes some missions show.

In my case, i may need a new power supply  

[FR4GGL3]

I won't bet at the PSU. I also have this hickups on my machine VS the F-16 and it is almost everytime against that plane on this map. I've not only swapped my PSU but also my GFX Card. Next thing will be Board+CPU+RAM if it still hickups, then there is nothing left to do (I can sort out the cooling for sure, as you won't get more airflow than you get on a Fractal Torrent and I have a decent custom loop just for the CPU).